Teacher Healer - Education for Real Change

Kylie Lewis: Why vulnerability is needed in schools

November 01, 2021 Kylie Lewis Season 1 Episode 3
Teacher Healer - Education for Real Change
Kylie Lewis: Why vulnerability is needed in schools
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Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, I'm joined by Kylie Lewis, founder of Of Kin. Kylie speaks about why vulnerability is needed in schools.

Kylie is a leadership developer and climate reality leader specialising in building brave leaders and courage cultures. She is a certified facilitator of Dr Brené Brown’s work on courage, vulnerability, shame and resilience (The Daring Way™, Rising Strong™ & Dare To Lead™), a Conversational Intelligence practitioner and a systemic team coach. Her vision is to build capacity for brave conversations in boardrooms, classrooms and loungerooms across Australia. 
Your homework: 

  • Consider: What is your call to courage? 
  • Think about how you can demonstrate more compassion for yourself in your work (and life). How can you treat yourself the way you might treat a close friend when acting with compassion?

Further learning related to this episode/references:

Learn more at teacherhealer.com

Music by Twisterium from Pixabay.

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00:00:01 Janine 

Today I'm joined by Kylie Lewis who is a leadership developer, climate reality leader and founder of Of Kin, a training organization based in Melbourne. 

00:00:12 Janine 

It specializes in building brave leaders and courage cultures. 

00:00:16 Janine 

Kylie is a certified facilitator of Doctor Brené Brown's work on courage, vulnerability, shame and resilience. 

00:00:23 Janine 

A conversational intelligence practitioner and a systemic team coach. 

00:00:27 Janine 

Her vision is to build capacity for brave conversations in boardrooms, classrooms and lounge rooms across Australia. 

00:00:43 Janine 

Welcome Kylie, thank you for joining us in teacher Healer today. 

00:00:46 Janine 

Thanks so. 

00:00:46 Janine 

For having me, I'm actually. 

00:00:48 Janine 

Very excited to have the privilege of speaking to you. 

00:00:52 Janine 

Not only 'cause you're just a fantastic special human being 'cause we had a chat earlier, but also because you know you're a certified practitioner in the daring. 

00:01:01 Janine 

Sure am and I am a Brené Brown fangirl. 

00:01:05 Janine 

So it's super great and I want to learn more. 

00:01:08 Janine 

So I thought you might be able to kick this off by telling us a little bit about your work, and I know you've been in schools and especially early learning centers. 

00:01:16 Janine 

So I'm going to hand it over. 

00:01:18 Kylie 

Yeah, sure, so I have a company called Of Kin and in my in the in the in my business I work really with leaders and developing courageous, daring, brave leaders. I do that predominantly through public workshops and executive coaching and working inside organisations with their leadership teams. 

00:01:41 Kylie 

And I've been doing that. 

00:01:44 Kylie 

I've had my own business for eight years, but I'm really in the last three years, in particular, working exclusively with Renee Brown stair to lead. 

00:01:54 Kylie 

So the daring way curriculum that you mentioned just before that came out of her work in in daring greatly and rising strong. 

00:02:02 Kylie 

Which is fantastic work that is sums up the research that Renee has done in the areas of courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy over the last. 

00:02:13 Kylie 

For say 15 years. 

00:02:15 Kylie 

And then in 2018 she published a book which was really taking the same concepts but studying them in an organizational context. 

00:02:24 Kylie 

And that really was the area that I wanted to dig into having, you know, having having had a career of you know the last 20 years working in organisations, I could see the real value of the stuff that she had talked about in daring greatly and rising strong but really wanted it in a context of organizational development. 

00:02:45 Kylie 

'cause I could just say that there was a massive need for that. 

00:02:48 Kylie 

So yeah, so I've been working working with that pretty much. 

00:02:52 Kylie 

Uhm, exclusively for the last three years. 

00:02:55 Janine 

Brilliant and has it been a good time. 

00:02:57 Kylie 

Yeah, it's been amazing. 

00:02:59 Kylie 

It's the most rewarding work I've probably ever done and I found it. 

00:03:04 Kylie 

It can be a little bit selfish because every time I dig into the work and deliver the curriculum and work alongside people exploring it and. 

00:03:14 Kylie 

Letting that work sink into their bones, I learn something, you know it, it helps deepen my leadership practice as well so you know, the most common feedback that I get from people is that it's either made them feel comma as a leader because they have a greater awareness and an insight of how they operate. 

00:03:35 Kylie 

Nation, what their triggers are, and they have an appreciation for their emotional landscape. 

00:03:40 Kylie 

As a leader. 

00:03:42 Kylie 

And have some tools in their toolkit to help approach that and to rumble with, you know, the difficult parts of leadership, particularly around having hard conversations and giving and receiving feedback. 

00:03:54 Kylie 

Setting boundaries. 

00:03:56 Kylie 

Those kinds of things so people feel comma because of that and and they also say that it hasn't just. 

00:04:06 Kylie 

Impacted the way that they show up at work. 

00:04:08 Kylie 

It's how they show up in their lives as a whole person, and so they're really talking about. 

00:04:14 Kylie 

You know the self awareness of who am I in the world no matter which arena that I show up in and and how do I? 

00:04:21 Kylie 

How do I want to be in the world? 

00:04:23 Kylie 

What what choices do I have now that I've got sort of a bit more of a? 

00:04:26 Kylie 

Awareness of how I tick. 

00:04:28 Janine 

Umm, it sounds like much more than a leadership program. 

00:04:33 Kylie 

I sometimes sneak Lee say that. 

00:04:37 Kylie 

I think I think. 

00:04:38 Kylie 

As human beings, there is somewhat maybe have a tendency to give priority to professional development that we see that there's a payoff in terms of our career or our work or our competency in that area. 

00:04:56 Kylie 

And perhaps we don't tend to that as much in our personal development. 

00:05:02 Kylie 

And so. 

00:05:03 Janine 

I think I think. 

00:05:04 Kylie 

Sort of some of the magic of data lead is that it's very much within an organizational context and how you show up in a leadership capacity. 

00:05:12 Kylie 

But it will change who you are as a human being. 

00:05:14 Kylie 

Fundamentally in in all parts of your life. 

00:05:18 Kylie 

So there's a little bit of kind of justifying. 

00:05:21 Kylie 

What I think I need, but then filling the gap is probably what you actually do need. 

00:05:28 Janine 

If you know that old chestnut, yeah. 

00:05:30 Janine 

Tell them what they want given. 

00:05:31 Janine 

What they need, isn't it? 

00:05:33 Janine 

That's exactly it, yeah, so this is. 

00:05:36 Janine 

The bit that I'm really interested in, because you know, teacher healer. 

00:05:41 Janine 

My vision is that education can be a force for positive change in the world and healing, and you know you're working with educational leaders, so to heal themselves by the sounds of it in some ways, tell me a little bit more what what kind of process does a person go through in one of your programs? 

00:06:00 Kylie 

The curriculum, the way. 

00:06:01 Kylie 

That it's sort of been set up is. 

00:06:05 Kylie 

Having some self awareness about what gets in the way of you showing up, perhaps as a brave leader or with a little bit more courage in your career so you know we start from the place of investigating the question of where would you like to be braver in as a leader, you know. 

00:06:24 Kylie 

What is your personal call to courage as a leader? 

00:06:27 Kylie 

And I think we don't very often stop and ask ourselves that question. 

00:06:32 Kylie 

And so that sort of deliberate reflection, sort of straight off the bat about what sort of getting in. 

00:06:39 Kylie 

The way of. 

00:06:41 Kylie 

How I would like to be, you know, and for many people, it's kind of like, well, actually. 

00:06:45 Kylie 

How would I like to be? 

00:06:46 Kylie 

Is there do I have a choice? 

00:06:49 Kylie 

Yeah, is is there. 

00:06:50 Kylie 

Is there a way? 

00:06:51 Kylie 

Through some some of these things that I'm bumping up against all that I'm feeling deeply uncomfortable or unsure how to tackle. 

00:06:59 Kylie 

So we start off. 

00:07:00 Kylie 

We start off there. 

00:07:01 Kylie 

We sort of say you know, where would you like to be braver in your working life? 

00:07:05 Kylie 

Uhm, you know where are the places where you're kind of holding yourself back? 

00:07:11 Kylie 

What would you like to change and what are some of the things that you might identify that you might need? 

00:07:18 Kylie 

You know what are some of the skills that you think you'd like to develop in order to be able to answer that call. 

00:07:24 Kylie 

Uhm so. 

00:07:27 Kylie 

If anyone followed grenades work before. 

00:07:29 Kylie 

You know they would. 

00:07:30 Kylie 

Have heard her talk about the man in. 

00:07:32 Kylie 

The arena quote. 

00:07:33 Kylie 

And and how? 

00:07:35 Kylie 

It's not the critic who counts. 

00:07:37 Kylie 

It's actually the man who's in the arena, who you know is in in the arena of their lives. 

00:07:43 Kylie 

And striving to do their best and to to make change. 

00:07:47 Kylie 

Uhm well. 

00:07:49 Kylie 

You know in. 

00:07:50 Kylie 

In in the greatest kind of outcome will be. 

00:07:53 Kylie 

Festival, but for many of for many of us we will actually, you know, fail at doing that, and we'll end up face down in the arena. 

00:08:03 Kylie 

But the most important thing is. 

00:08:04 Kylie 

That while we were doing that. 

00:08:05 Kylie 

We were daring greatly, so I've really, yeah, really hacked that quote, but. 

00:08:10 Kylie 

The idea the idea is. 

00:08:11 Kylie 

That we can often sit outside of the arena. 

00:08:13 Kylie 

Of our lives, for fear. 

00:08:14 Kylie 

Of what the critics will think. 

00:08:16 Kylie 

And and sometimes those critics are very real. 

00:08:21 Kylie 

You know, tangible people in our world. 

00:08:24 Kylie 

Sometimes it's the imagined stories that we've made up about what might happen, and and sometimes we're our own critic as well and can get in our. 

00:08:33 Kylie 

Own way of. 

00:08:34 Kylie 

Showing up more bravely. 

00:08:36 Kylie 

So we take that idea of of you know where would you like to be? 

00:08:40 Kylie 

Braver to be able to get into the arena and and show up in those ways. 

00:08:45 Kylie 

And then we start investigating well what what is getting in the way and what what do we need to do that and so we start off really exploring vulnerability and the the discomfort of vulnerability which remained defines as risk uncertainty and emotional exposure. 

00:09:06 Kylie 

Umm, and nobody likes to feel those things. 

00:09:10 Kylie 

Nobody likes to feel exposed, you know, uncertain or you know to really take on much risk. 

00:09:19 Kylie 

We spend most of our lives trying to get comfortable trying to get sick. 

00:09:23 Kylie 

You're trying to, you know, keep a lid on everything. 

00:09:27 Kylie 

Uhm to stay safe. 

00:09:30 Kylie 

But what we don't realize is that often in our hunt for sort of staying, staying safe and staying out of vulnerability is, you know, and often we do that because we fear things like. 

00:09:46 Kylie 

Uh, we do fear uncertainty. 

00:09:48 Kylie 

We we we. 

00:09:49 Kylie 

We have fears about what what that might have for us. 

00:09:52 Kylie 

We might feel anxious, we might be worried about feeling shame, or we might feel shame. 

00:09:58 Kylie 

And so we try and minimize all of those things. 

00:10:01 Kylie 

And when we shut down vulnerability when we shutdown risk uncertainty and emotional exposure, we shut down actually. 

00:10:06 Kylie 

Our opportunity to experience. 

00:10:09 Kylie 

All of the other things that also happen in the birth place of vulnerabilities. 

00:10:14 Kylie 

You know, love, belonging, and joy also come out of vulnerability. 

00:10:19 Kylie 

Courage, empathy, inclusivity. 

00:10:24 Kylie 

Uhm, giving and giving hard feedback. 

00:10:29 Kylie 

Ethical decision making resilience and resetting those are also all born in vulnerability, so we spend quite a lot of time upfront. 

00:10:39 Kylie 

Really investigating. 

00:10:41 Kylie 

What are some other myths around vulnerability? 

00:10:44 Kylie 

Uhm, how they might be showing up in our leadership practice. 

00:10:48 Kylie 

Uhm, we investigate. 

00:10:50 Kylie 

You know what're the? 

00:10:51 Kylie 

What're the noisy things that we hear when we're going into the arena. 

00:10:55 Kylie 

You know whose voices are we hearing a man? 

00:10:58 Kylie 

Who's who's who's? 

00:10:59 Kylie 

Got power and and then what do we need in order to be able to step forward? 

00:11:04 Kylie 

Into into answering that call, you know who is in our empathy seats. 

00:11:08 Kylie 

Now arena. 

00:11:09 Kylie 

Uhm, what kind of self compassion can we offer ourselves and we think about doing something brave. 

00:11:16 Kylie 

So we spent a lot of time really rumbling with vulnerability because it's the foundational piece for a brave life. 

00:11:24 Kylie 

But we often build, you know, we've often grown up either thinking that vulnerability is weakness. 

00:11:31 Kylie 

That vulnerability is not something that we do and or we think we can go it alone, UM. 

00:11:41 Kylie 

Or that vulnerability requires us to over share everything in our lives? 

00:11:44 Kylie 

You know, there's there's. 

00:11:45 Kylie 

There's lots of vulnerabilities as sorry there's lots of nips around vulnerability that we really spend some time investigating and and then talking about. 

00:11:54 Kylie 

You know what we need to be able to do to to rumble with the discomfort of vulnerability so we don't shut down. 

00:12:01 Kylie 

All the opportunities that come in being able to sit in the discomfort of it. 

00:12:06 Janine 

Gosh, I'm the more I'm listening to you, the more I'm like. 

00:12:09 Janine 

Gosh, it's so great. 

00:12:10 Janine 

Leaders are doing. 

00:12:10 Janine 

This, but it could work at all layers like wouldn't you just love for all teachers to do this when you love for the students to be? 

00:12:18 Janine 

You know that question. 

00:12:19 Janine 

About what's your? 

00:12:20 Janine 

Call to courage for a teacher that is an epic question, like because. 

00:12:26 Janine 

Everyday stepping in front of a class of unpredictable kids. 

00:12:30 Janine 

It's, uh, colder, courage, isn't it? 

00:12:31 Janine 

And and so why do you keep showing up? 

00:12:34 Janine 

And I I guess I'm gonna throw it out to the listeners to put on their list to think about this week. 

00:12:38 Janine 

Let's you call to. 

00:12:39 Janine 

Why do you keep showing? 

00:12:41 Janine 

Up, you know the other thing. 

00:12:43 Janine 

I really loved was that. 

00:12:44 Janine 

I do have self compassion. 

00:12:47 Janine 

I don't know if you might unpack that one. 

00:12:48 Kylie 

A little bit more. 

00:12:49 Kylie 

Yeah, I I just want to quickly go back. 

00:12:52 Kylie 

Yeah, I think the I think teachers are absolutely among amongst the bravest people and professions because every time you step into a classroom your Stephanie. 

00:13:02 Kylie 

You're stepping into an arena. 

00:13:04 Kylie 

And and yeah, it is uncertain what will happen. 

00:13:07 Kylie 

There's no guarantees. 

00:13:08 Kylie 

So how the class is? 

00:13:10 Kylie 

Going to go, you know how. 

00:13:12 Kylie 

How everyone else is showing up to that? 

00:13:14 Kylie 

And so yeah, absolutely. 

00:13:17 Kylie 

And hats off to educators everywhere. 

00:13:21 Kylie 

I I in actually delivering the data lead curriculum, self compassion I think is probably one of the most important takeaways that participants have. 

00:13:36 Kylie 

So one of the. 

00:13:38 Kylie 

One of the things that we often find ourselves in when we're thinking about being brave. 

00:13:46 Kylie 

And we're thinking about going into the arena, and it's those moments where we think about having that hard conversation or pushing back on an idea or challenging the status quo. 

00:13:57 Kylie 

Or you know, pitching a new way of doing things like all of those arena moments that are full of discomfort. 

00:14:06 Kylie 

Anywhere where there's that vulnerability, you know. 

00:14:10 Kylie 

It's in those moments that we have a choice to think. 

00:14:13 Kylie 

Am I going to say this? 

00:14:14 Kylie 

Am I going to challenge this? 

00:14:16 Kylie 

Am I going to call this out? 

00:14:18 Kylie 

Am I going? 

00:14:19 Kylie 

To put. 

00:14:20 Kylie 

This into the mix of what's happening. 

00:14:22 Kylie 

And and. 

00:14:25 Kylie 

We and it seemed that moment where we can, where we can think, UM. 

00:14:30 Kylie 

You know we can hear the voice of shame, so grenade talks about shame. 

00:14:33 Kylie 

Driving 2 messages. 

00:14:35 Kylie 

Never good enough. 

00:14:37 Kylie 

So you know or never enough, never enough mess so you know. 

00:14:42 Kylie 

Well I'm not experienced enough to contribute this or I'm not senior enough to be contributing to this. 

00:14:51 Kylie 

I'm I'm not old enough to be experience, you know, to be doing these things like you know. 

00:14:56 Kylie 

So whatever, you're not. 

00:14:57 Kylie 

Enoughness is, and even if you can get past that is well. 

00:15:00 Kylie 

Who who who AM 

00:15:01 Kylie 

I who do I think I am to be contributing this anyway, you know? 

00:15:05 Kylie 

And it it's. 

00:15:06 Kylie 

In those spaces that we can find ourselves holding ourselves back and she calls these the cheap seats. 

00:15:11 Kylie 

Or no, she sorry she calls these the season ticket holders in the arena and so if there are different kind of sections in the arena of where we think we're going to be brave, there's the season ticket. 

00:15:21 Kylie 

Holders of comparison. 

00:15:22 Kylie 

Shame scarcity that always show up. 

00:15:25 Kylie 

When we think about doing something brave. 

00:15:27 Kylie 

Uhm, there's the cheap seats of you know people hurling advice and criticism and judgement, but who will never actually be in the arena and doing the things that you're doing, there's the box seats you know which are normally held by the people who built the arena who hold power. 

00:15:45 Kylie 

You know who can potentially be. 

00:15:47 Kylie 

Operating from stereotypes. 

00:15:49 Kylie 

And and then the two most important seats in the arena. 

00:15:53 Kylie 

Empathy and self compassion and the people in the empathy seats are the people who you know only want the best for you that can rumble with the discomfort of saying. 

00:16:04 Kylie 

Yeah, that was really hard. 

00:16:05 Kylie 

And yeah, I can see that you did make a mistake and I'm going to be here and help to help you clean it up and and and push you back in the arena. 

00:16:15 Kylie 

And sometimes we need professional empathy seat sitters in that area. 

00:16:19 Kylie 

You know one of the exercises that we ask in the curriculum is who is in your empathy seats. 

00:16:24 Kylie 

You know who is going to show up without judgment without a hidden agenda and and he's only going to be there for the best of you and. 

00:16:32 Kylie 

It's generally a very small number of people that do that, and sometimes you even need to have a professional. 

00:16:39 Kylie 

You know empathy seats that are at like a mentor or a coach or a. 

00:16:42 Kylie 

Therapist and and the other most important. 

00:16:45 Kylie 

Seat is the seat of self compassion. 


When we when? 

00:16:50 Kylie 

We hear the the season ticket holders of shame. 

00:16:53 Kylie 

It can often be a very noisy section that's saying. 

00:16:57 Kylie 

You know in that not enoughness that I'm the only one experiencing this lack of confidence or this. 

00:17:06 Kylie 

You know this this struggle, this hard moment that you know it's me alone kind of that's not adequate in this situation or experiencing these emotions. 

00:17:16 Kylie 

The voice of self compassion recognizes that. 

00:17:19 Kylie 

Those emotions feeling that way. 

00:17:22 Kylie 

You know being uncomfortable is part of common humanity. 

00:17:26 Kylie 

It's not me alone that is going through these issues or having these doubts or worried about these things or concerned about these things. 

00:17:36 Kylie 

So the voice of self compassion 1. 

00:17:41 Kylie 

The same voice that you would offer to a loved one who maybe use or going through something difficult. 

00:17:48 Kylie 

A difficult challenge. 

00:17:50 Kylie 

That same care and concern that you have and warmth that you have for that other person. 

00:17:55 Kylie 

You offer to yourself. 

00:17:59 Kylie 

And so you know, grenade draws on Kristin Neff work in self compassion and it's basically talking to yourself the way that you would talk. 

00:18:09 Kylie 

To someone you love. 

00:18:11 Kylie 

So for example, if you if if you could see your best friend. 

00:18:17 Kylie 

Struggling with the thing that you're struggling with at the moment. 

00:18:22 Kylie 

What would you wish for them? 

00:18:25 Kylie 

What would you wish that they would do for themselves, or what advice or support or encouragement would you give to them? 

00:18:35 Kylie 

And cultivating you, giving that to yourself. 

00:18:40 Kylie 

Yeah, so it's that it's talking to ourselves like someone we we love. 

00:18:46 Kylie 

It's recognizing that the emotions, the difficulties that I'm facing, and the emotions that go along with that. 

00:18:53 Kylie 

Aren't just me having a hard time of this situation that as a human being alive on the planet today, I'm having a very human experience that is common to the constraints to the concerns to you know, to the situations that I find myself in. 

00:19:12 Kylie 

So it's not me. 

00:19:13 Kylie 

Alone, I'm never. 

00:19:15 Kylie 

I'm not gonna be the only one that has ever struggled with this in the past or to struggle with it in the future. 

00:19:20 Kylie 

It's just what's with me at this point in time. 

00:19:23 Kylie 

Mm-hmm yeah. 

00:19:24 Kylie 

And that third piece, then, is the mindfulness peace. 

00:19:27 Kylie 

It's it's the mindfulness piece of being able to recognize and identify those emotions. 

00:19:32 Kylie 

And and and this is where emotional literacy becomes really important. 

00:19:37 Kylie 

Being able to recognize and name our emotions. 

00:19:41 Kylie 

And instead of denying them or pushing them away or diminishing them. 

00:19:45 Kylie 

Or pretend that they're not in there. 

00:19:46 Kylie 

They're not there. 

00:19:47 Kylie 

We can say to ourselves, gosh, I'm 

00:19:52 Kylie 

Feeling in struggle right now I I'm feeling anxious. 

00:19:56 Kylie 

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and worried. 

00:19:59 Kylie 

I'm feeling frustrated and you know, I might be feeling a bit angry with how things are going at the moment. 

00:20:08 Kylie 

And and being able to sit with that rather than diminish it or push it away or pretend it's not. 

00:20:13 Kylie 

There and just observe it. 

00:20:16 Kylie 

Just going well, what what's this telling me what's this telling me that's important? 

00:20:20 Kylie 

To my values to my contribution to my purpose, and then I need to be paying attention to. 

00:20:28 Kylie 

And I can I can allow myself to acknowledge these emotions to maybe sit with them for a moment. 

00:20:36 Kylie 

To get curious about them. 

00:20:38 Kylie 

And then have some strategies to move through it. 

00:20:40 Kylie 

I don't have to set up camp in these emotions, I can experience them. 

00:20:44 Kylie 

I can visit them. 

00:20:45 Kylie 

I can be informed by the data that they're trying to communicate to me about what's what's happening and what's going important. 

00:20:52 Kylie 

What am I bumping up against that? 

00:20:53 Kylie 

I need to get curious about. 

00:20:56 Kylie 

And and I can move through them. 

00:20:59 Kylie 

So self compassion is really that talking to yourself like someone you love, recognizing that it is part of the common humanity rather than only you're going through. 

00:21:10 Kylie 

This situation. 

00:21:12 Kylie 

And the mindfulness to just pay attention to your emotional life. 

00:21:16 Kylie 

That it's important and that it has information and that. 

00:21:20 Kylie 

Whether or not we want to acknowledge it, emotions actually get the first crack at anything that happens in our life. 

00:21:27 Kylie 

We rationalize thinking, you know that we are thinking doing beings who sometimes feel. 

00:21:33 Kylie 

But the but the fact is that we are feeling human beings. 

00:21:36 Kylie 

Emotions will get the first crack at it and and so we need to be able to get a bit better perhaps than what we have in the past and and maybe. 

00:21:46 Kylie 

For any of. 

00:21:47 Kylie 

Your early childhood educators or primary educators. 

00:21:51 Kylie 

I know they spend a lot of time. 

00:21:53 Kylie 

In you know social, social, emotional intelligence, space. 

00:21:56 Kylie 

Now a. 

00:21:58 Kylie 

Lot of us. 

00:21:58 Kylie 

Older folk have a bit of catching up to do on hopefully what's happening with the younger generation and through those curriculum. 

00:22:04 Janine 

Now yeah, brilliant. 

00:22:06 Janine 

I can't wait to see that sort of start to flow into secondary and hopefully secondary teachers can take that on board to. 

00:22:11 Janine 

I know that sometimes things don't translate between the earlier years in the upper years. 

00:22:15 Janine 

But yeah, wonderful work, but. 

00:22:18 Janine 

I'm I'm really thinking about, you know you're talking about mistakes in that sense of not being alone, and I know that. 

00:22:24 Janine 

In schools there is more and more collaboration happening, but certainly the schools that I've been in there's still a very siloed environment in many subject areas where. 

00:22:35 Janine 

Yeah, you might have your faculty and you might have your meetings and everything, but when you walk. 

00:22:39 Janine 

In front. 

00:22:39 Janine 

Of the class you there in your own most of the time, and there's this real great sense of autonomy that haven't freedom that happens with that. 

00:22:48 Janine 

But I I feel like. 

00:22:50 Janine 

You know, I've seen a lot of schools try to implement observation programs and feedback and. 

00:22:55 Janine 

Things and, and I know a lot of teachers are a bit frightened of that, and they don't like looking like they make mistakes. 

00:23:02 Janine 

And I think leaders are definitely in that category. 

00:23:05 Janine 

Principles are, gosh, you wouldn't want to be called out doing something wrong in some situations. 

00:23:09 Janine 

The sticky sticky ones that they get. 

00:23:13 Janine 

So I guess. 

00:23:15 Speaker 1 

But what's the? 

00:23:16 Janine 

Way to break that down is it just we need to talk about it more like do we just need to say yeah I'm human and I messed up. 

00:23:21 Janine 

I did this thing rather than keep it all secret or what's your solution? 

00:23:26 Kylie 

So one of the pieces that goes sort of extends further with this art. 

00:23:30 Kylie 

With this metaphor of being in the arena, is this idea of how we are more up ourselves when we go into those arenas. 

00:23:41 Kylie 

And so in the research grenaded she was, she was trying to understand. 

00:23:47 Kylie 

From observing transformational leaders or brave the brave leaders that she had identified what was what was the you know? 

00:23:55 Kylie 

What were some of the differences in how they approached? 

00:23:59 Kylie 

Hard conversations giving feedback. 

00:24:03 Kylie 

Receiving feedback handling change. 

00:24:08 Kylie 

And she talks about what she calls armored leadership behaviors versus daring leadership behaviors. 

00:24:17 Kylie 

And So what she found out was through the research was that we can all feel afraid. 

00:24:23 Speaker 1 

Made at work. 

00:24:25 Kylie 

We can all be fearful of being observed of getting feedback or things not going to plan of making mistakes. 

00:24:32 Kylie 

And but that's not necessarily what keeps us from being a brave leader, so her research found that even the bravest leaders can can can feel fear. 

00:24:43 Kylie 

So it's not necessarily the case of, you know. 

00:24:46 Kylie 

Uhm, you you can only be courageous if you don't have any fear like. 

00:24:52 Kylie 

That's actually a big. 

00:24:53 Kylie 

Like a big myth as well. 

00:24:55 Kylie 

Umm, UM. 

00:24:57 Kylie 

Coverage is actually. 

00:24:58 Kylie 

Fear walking is what Susan David out of emotional agility, talks about. 

00:25:02 Kylie 

Yeah, so yeah. 

00:25:03 Kylie 

So courage isn't the absence of fear. 

00:25:06 Kylie 

Courage is the ability to say. 

00:25:08 Kylie 

I can feel afraid of actually what's going on right now, but you have a choice. 

00:25:15 Kylie 

You have a choice. 

00:25:16 Kylie 

Have to say. 

00:25:17 Kylie 

So I'm gonna armor up and I'm going to. 

00:25:22 Kylie 

I'm going to be the Noah and I'm gonna always put myself as someone who has the right answer. 

00:25:28 Kylie 

I'm I'm going to potentially avoid hard conversations wherever I can. 

00:25:35 Kylie 

I'm I'm going to hold a position where I'm I strive for so much perfection that it's not my issue and it's not my problem. 

00:25:47 Kylie 

Because, you know, I strive so much to have everything right all the time that it's probably going to be somebody else that's stuffed something up, you know? 

00:25:56 Kylie 

So she talks about this idea of of weaken armor up and in armoring up it really drives disconnection. 



00:26:05 Kylie 

It really pushes it. 

00:26:07 Kylie 

It pushes people away when. 

00:26:09 Kylie 

Uhm, you know I'm carrying around this armor and the big one that we talk about. You know there's 38 different behaviors that she has in the latest version of the curriculum that was released last year. 

00:26:20 Kylie 

The biggest one is for many of us, and I think this is particularly true of teachers who are in the position of having to be the Noah and having to be right, you know. 

00:26:29 Kylie 

Because we're imparting knowledge and you know, we're we're, we're holding space for learning and we ask, you know, we have some expertise. 

00:26:38 Kylie 

It's this idea that if I always have to be the know and be right, then I'm less likely to take the space of. 

00:26:47 Kylie 

I'm here to be a learner and to get it right. 

00:26:50 Kylie 

And so if we want to be daring, leaders are holding that space of I'm a I'm an ongoing learner. 

00:26:58 Kylie 

I'm a curious. 

00:27:00 Kylie 

Person I may not always get it right, so I'm here to learn how to get it right. 

00:27:06 Kylie 

Over time I will ask lots of questions. 

00:27:08 Kylie 

I will be open to feedback. 

00:27:10 Kylie 

I will recognize that you know different experiences that other people have. 

00:27:16 Kylie 

Different education, different cultural backgrounds will have. 

00:27:20 Kylie 

A whole range of things to. 

00:27:23 Kylie 

Offer that I couldn't possibly know about. 

00:27:26 Kylie 

So we spend a lot of time talking about. 

00:27:31 Kylie 

Being armored up and what we need to do to be able to to put our armor down in the arena so that we can have vulnerable kinds of conversations. 

00:27:42 Kylie 

So if you know the situation that you described about, say, being observed in the classroom. 

00:27:48 Kylie 

Uhm, you know they could. 

00:27:50 Kylie 

That that can be. 

00:27:51 Kylie 

That can be something that I imagine teachers could feel quite anxious about. 

00:27:56 Kylie 

You know, they know that they're being evaluated. 

00:27:58 Kylie 

They know that they might, you know, be gonna get some hard feedback at the end of that, you know, and there can. 

00:28:04 Kylie 

Be this whole. 

00:28:05 Kylie 

Idea of OK I'm gonna put I'm gonna put a uh you know some armor I I want this to go perfectly I want to you know I'm performing perfecting. 

00:28:16 Kylie 

Pleasing, you know. 

00:28:17 Kylie 

Trying to do all of. 

00:28:18 Kylie 

That yeah. 

00:28:20 Kylie 

And and when it doesn't go to plan 'cause no plan survives its impact with reality. 

00:28:29 Kylie 

You know where do we go with? 

00:28:30 Kylie 

That you know what's our, what? 

00:28:32 Kylie 

What is our reaction when things don't go well? 

00:28:35 Kylie 

How do we? 

00:28:36 Kylie 

How do we handle then the discomfort of of failure or disappointment or set back? 

00:28:44 Kylie 

And and for many of us you know we maybe not have haven't seen it. 

00:28:49 Kylie 

Well, model very well. 

00:28:50 Kylie 

We haven't necessarily seen other people. 

00:28:53 Kylie 

Bounce, be able to bounce back with. 

00:28:56 Kylie 

Come with grace and with compassion and empathy when things haven't gone well. 

00:29:04 Kylie 

So you know, in that scenario that you talked about with the teacher, a conversation with with perhaps the person that's coming in to observe, and the and the teacher beforehand, that is an assurance that we're actually both on the same side. 

00:29:19 Kylie 

This is actually a learning opportunity. 

00:29:21 Kylie 

For both of us. 

00:29:22 Kylie 

US and that I'm here to help identify you know what what's going really well and where your strengths are, and then perhaps what are some of the other areas that I can help fill some gaps in? 

00:29:37 Kylie 

Or you know, help answer any questions you might have around you know. 

00:29:42 Kylie 

The things that you're struggling with or you'd like to develop a stronger skill set in. 

00:29:48 Kylie 

It's the intention that you set up beforehand. 

00:29:51 Kylie 

Like what's the? 

00:29:52 Kylie 

What's the purpose of this? 

00:29:54 Kylie 

Activity that we're doing together. 

00:29:57 Kylie 

Uhm, because if I have a sense that you're in this with me and you're here to support my growth and development and help me. 

00:30:08 Kylie 

Uhm, deal with the discomfort of, you know, being the learner in this situation. 

00:30:15 Kylie 

Uhm, then I must. 

00:30:16 Kylie 

I'm much more likely to stay open to taking on feedback and growing rather than keeping the armor up and keeping defensive and shutting down opportunities to learn and grow. 

00:30:28 Janine 

That's OK, isn't it? 

00:30:30 Janine 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:30:32 Janine 

I'm just thinking it back on some of my experiences and some have been better than others. 

00:30:36 Janine 

You know at one school it was just a nightmare doing that observation. 

00:30:39 Janine 

It was like a tick box exercise. 

00:30:40 Janine 

It was full of anxiety. 

00:30:42 Janine 

And then another time it was really collaborative process. 

00:30:45 Janine 

It was enjoyable. 

00:30:46 Janine 

There was lots of planning involved. 

00:30:47 Janine 

There's lots of chit chat about. 

00:30:49 Janine 

Hey, I'm going to experiment with this thing. 

00:30:50 Janine 

Let's see how it goes and there was a little bit more risk taking and it was. 

00:30:54 Janine 

Yeah it. 

00:30:54 Janine 

Was about. 

00:30:55 Janine 

How it was set up by the leaders. 

00:30:57 Kylie 

Yeah, and So what you're talking about there. 

00:30:59 Kylie 

Is psychological safety. 

00:31:01 Kylie 

Umm, so and and psychological safety I've seen defined by Timothy Clarke is rewarded vulnerability. 

00:31:11 Janine 


00:31:13 Kylie 

So you know how safe is it for me to be vulnerable here? 

00:31:20 Kylie 

Uhm, how safe of how safe is it for me to say I need help? 

00:31:27 Kylie 

I have a question. 

00:31:29 Kylie 

I don't know the answer. 

00:31:30 Kylie 

I made a mistake. 

00:31:32 Kylie 

Yeah, and the I don't know. 

00:31:35 Kylie 

Perhaps the kind of meta kind of view on this, or maybe the ironic part of it is as teachers. 

00:31:40 Kylie 

This is hopefully what you're hoping to do with your kids with children. 

00:31:43 Kylie 

Yeah, because kids can't learn unless. 

00:31:47 Kylie 

It's a psychologically safe environment. 

00:31:51 Kylie 

And often what I found in working across professions, not just with with teachers. 

00:31:57 Kylie 

Or educators, but. 

00:31:59 Kylie 

We we sometimes can get fixed in us in our professional roles as this is what we do with our clients or our customers or who we serve that we forget that some of those principles in fact, probably most of them also are relevant in how we show up as a leader or a colleague or a team member. 

00:32:20 Kylie 

Without the people as well. 

00:32:23 Janine 

Yeah gosh, I'm really taken by that idea of like what did you say encourage vulnerability or what was that? 


I mean. 

00:32:30 Kylie 

And so Timothy Clark calls it rewarded. 

00:32:33 Kylie 

Vulnerability rewarded, yes? 

00:32:35 Kylie 

Yeah, so you know I actually get rewarded for asking questions. 

00:32:40 Kylie 

I get rewarded for contributing. 

00:32:45 Kylie 

I'm learning that, you know, I get rewarded for challenging ideas like they're not things that are pushed away or seen as. 

00:32:55 Kylie 

Negative or, you know, think something to get resentful about. 

00:32:59 Kylie 

It's actually great I'm. 

00:33:01 Kylie 

I'm so glad that you did that. 

00:33:02 Kylie 

It shows you're engaged. It shows that you care. It shows that you are thinking and curious, and that's that's that's what we want. And it goes back to Renee's definition of leadership. 

00:33:15 Kylie 

Which is about a leader. 

00:33:18 Kylie 

Is anyone who has the courage to develop the potential in people and processes. 

00:33:29 Kylie 

OK, so, uh leader. 

00:33:31 Kylie 

As anyone who has the courage to develop the potential in people and processes so a leader isn't somebody who just has the title of leader or the position or the power of leader. 

00:33:43 Kylie 

Or you know the you know the the formal given authority power of leader I've seen. 

00:33:49 Kylie 

I've seen you know, school in in air quotes, leadership teams. 

00:33:58 Kylie 

That I wouldn't necessarily call leadership teams, administration teams. 

00:34:02 Kylie 

Yes, management teams, yes leadership. 

00:34:06 Kylie 

Not so much. 

00:34:08 Janine 


00:34:10 Kylie 

You know, and then you could probably walk around a school ground and you could see you know people who don't have. 

00:34:16 Kylie 

Formal leadership authority. 

00:34:18 Speaker 1 


00:34:19 Kylie 

Absolutely leading in, you know, in their development of building other leaders. 

00:34:25 Janine 

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 

00:34:27 Janine 

Yeah, I'm just. 

00:34:29 Janine 

I'm like I, I'm going to go back to that psychological safety thing you discuss because that to me is a game changer. 

00:34:35 Janine 

What you said, 'cause I've thought about psychological safety in the classroom as you do because you want kids to feel. 

00:34:41 Janine 

Safe, but I've. 

00:34:41 Janine 

Never thought of it in that way. 

00:34:43 Janine 

Before so. 

00:34:45 Janine 

For me it's meant like you know, how do you stop kids from picking on each other? 

00:34:49 Janine 

Or how do you you know? 

00:34:51 Janine 

How do you create a safe space for discussion where people are going to? 

00:34:54 Janine 

Say nasty things or. 

00:34:54 Janine 

Rude jokes or whatever but. 

00:34:57 Janine 

But to think of it as this. 

00:35:02 Janine 

Rewarded vulnerability to be able to. 

00:35:05 Janine 

Fail and make mistakes, and to be a learner and to admit you don't know. 

00:35:10 Janine 

I mean, that's key, isn't it? 

00:35:12 Kylie 

How brave is? 

00:35:13 Kylie 

It, ah. 

00:35:15 Janine 

I'll never forget there's this story ahead with this young man who was. 

00:35:21 Janine 

A very talented musician I know he would have been in a choir outside of school. 

00:35:25 Janine 

And everything and he. 

00:35:27 Janine 

He came to my class and we were doing some recording on an iPad and he just would not engage and most of the kids were loving this. 

00:35:33 Janine 

They were like, yeah, I'm going to make my installing. 

00:35:35 Janine 

It's going to be super great and he's like not not having a. 

00:35:37 Janine 

Bar of it. 

00:35:38 Janine 

I'm like what's the deal man like why aren't you giving this a try? 

00:35:42 Janine 

He's like me, I had this idea of my. 

00:35:44 Janine 

Head of. 

00:35:45 Janine 

What I want it to look like and I'm not going to be able to do it. 

00:35:48 Janine 

It won't come out. 

00:35:49 Janine 

Perfect, so I'm not going to try. 

00:35:52 Janine 

And I've never forgotten that and I I wasn't able to get him over the line in that instance, but he wasn't willing to fail and it wasn't about what anyone else thought either. 

00:36:03 Janine 

It was about what he thought of his own work, and I don't think he's willing to. 

00:36:06 Janine 

Admit to himself. 

00:36:07 Janine 

That he has worked to grow, and I suppose I said to him, you know, I know without mate. 

00:36:13 Janine 

You have to do an outlook 100 times badly before you do something good you know and he took that on and I hope that that stays with him. 

00:36:22 Janine 

But it's yeah you have to be willing to. 

00:36:25 Kylie 

Fail, don't you? 

00:36:27 Kylie 

You have to be willing to fail and. 

00:36:29 Kylie 

You have to be. 

00:36:30 Kylie 

Ready to accept that? 

00:36:33 Kylie 

Perfectionism is a trap. 

00:36:37 Kylie 

Like perfectionism just works against everything that's good in our lives. 

00:36:45 Janine 

That just I just wonder if you have a piece of advice here because I've met so many teachers, especially graduate teachers, who will spend hours upon hours upon our planning, planning, planning, planning every lesson through the minute, right? 

00:36:57 Janine 

And I know that there's you know, we've got some political action happening at the moment with teachers who are overworked and we need to try and save them some time. 

00:37:04 Janine 

So what is your advice to those teachers who need to plan everything to? 

00:37:09 Kylie 

Yeah, there's a big difference between perfectionism, which is. 

00:37:16 Kylie 

Defined perfectionism is a function of shame. 

00:37:20 Kylie 

Affection ISM is a feeling of not enoughness. 

00:37:25 Kylie 

And what I'm trying to do is I'm I'm trying to put on so much armor. 

00:37:30 Kylie 

That I can minimize. 

00:37:34 Kylie 

Judgment shame and criticism. 

00:37:38 Kylie 

And that's and it's. 

00:37:40 Kylie 

It's all based about what will other people think? 

00:37:44 Kylie 

Healthy striving comes from a place of saying what do I wanna get out of this? 

00:37:51 Kylie 

What does success look like for me in this? 

00:37:55 Kylie 

What you know what's what's in this? 

00:37:59 Kylie 

That is the learning opportunity for me that I'll take on board. 

00:38:05 Kylie 

And so when we're when perfectionism is driving, we're really hustling very hard for our worth. 

00:38:12 Janine 


00:38:13 Kylie 

And when we think about healthy striving, it's it's an acknowledgement to say. 

00:38:21 Kylie 

It's really the acknowledgement is that I can be a learner and I can keep growing. 

00:38:26 Kylie 

I can start here and I can give it my best shot where I'm at now and recognize that I might not have all of the answers. 

00:38:34 Kylie 

I might not have it all figured out, but I'm gonna get in the arena and give it a go. 

00:38:38 Kylie 

So and I'm gonna be compassionate towards myself as a learner in this space, the same way that I would be compassionate and cheer on. 

00:38:49 Kylie 

You know my best friend who might be going through the same situation, yeah? 

00:38:53 Kylie 

And and. 

00:38:55 Kylie 

Once I do this thing. 

00:38:58 Kylie 

I will have some learnings out of that and that's how I get better, Umm? 

00:39:04 Kylie 

So I couldn't possibly, especially as a. 

00:39:06 Kylie 

Graduate I can't. 

00:39:07 Kylie 

Possibly be expected to know everything you know to have this skill of what I hope to have as a, you know, as an educator 10 years down the road from now. 

00:39:17 Kylie 

So this is. 

00:39:17 Kylie 

Where I'm starting with what I know, yeah. 

00:39:20 Kylie 

So who can I lean in? 

00:39:22 Kylie 

To to have a discussion. 

00:39:24 Speaker 1 

Who can I? 

00:39:25 Kylie 

Ask some questions about. 

00:39:27 Kylie 

Uhm, what conversations might be helpful? 

00:39:31 Kylie 

What's my list of questions that I could tap into a mentor or somebody else about? 

00:39:37 Kylie 

Like very often we think we have to do this all on our own. 

00:39:42 Kylie 

And that's another myth of vulnerability that you know I, that I can go it alone. 

00:39:47 Kylie 

You know that somehow I don't need other people. 

00:39:51 Kylie 

And and that just pushes up against our biology of how we're actually hardwired. 

00:39:57 Kylie 

We are actually hardwired to being in connection with other people. 

00:40:01 Kylie 

We are a social species. 

00:40:02 Kylie 

We've only ever survived by being in connection with other people. 

00:40:06 Kylie 

Umm, and so sometimes, particularly when we're you know when we're trying to prove and perform and perfect. 

00:40:14 Kylie 

We can take a. 

00:40:15 Kylie 

Lot of that on ourselves rather than saying. 

00:40:19 Kylie 

This is what I'm sort of feeling like a it. 

00:40:21 Kylie 

This is where I'm. 

00:40:22 Kylie 

Struggling with who can I reach out to you to have this conversation? 

00:40:25 Kylie 

Is it a? 

00:40:26 Kylie 

Talk with is it a phone conversation with? 

00:40:29 Kylie 

You know one of the other graduates and just asking have they got any insight? 

00:40:32 Kylie 

Is it with a coordinator or a mentor? 

00:40:35 Kylie 

That ever been been assigned in the school and being OK? 

00:40:39 Kylie 

With feeling. 

00:40:40 Kylie 

With feeling emotionally exposed in that. 

00:40:45 Kylie 

Yeah, and we're not normally practiced, right? 

00:40:48 Kylie 

That's why that's why. 

00:40:49 Kylie 

It's that's why it's brave. 

00:40:50 Speaker 1 

Oh yeah. 

00:40:50 Kylie 

That's why it's brave to do that is to admit I don't feel I've got a handle on this. 

00:40:55 Kylie 

Can I look this through with you and and just get some feedback? 

00:41:01 Janine 

Yeah, no good at 5. 

00:41:04 Janine 

I wish I had done that more in my first year and I would definitely second what you just. 

00:41:08 Janine 

Said yeah, I think. 

00:41:09 Kylie 

A lot of burnout in that perspective can come. 

00:41:13 Kylie 

It's the psychological burnout of feeling like I. 

00:41:16 Kylie 

I should have this all together, yeah. 

00:41:21 Kylie 

Do you think do you think that? 

00:41:23 Kylie 

That happens when I'm thinking. 

00:41:23 Janine 

Yeah it does. 

00:41:25 Janine 

It absolutely does, and I've I've seen it in my friends as well and just seeing them run themselves ragged. 

00:41:31 Janine 

And I wasn't one of those guys, but I didn't reach out for help either. 

00:41:35 Janine 

I just. 

00:41:36 Janine 

Have drowned in my. 

00:41:37 Janine 

First couple years. 

00:41:38 Kylie 

You know, yeah, and you know what was really surprising. 

00:41:42 Kylie 

Renee talks about in the research. 

00:41:44 Kylie 

So when when we look at the curriculum, rumbling with vulnerability is a big piece of the work. 

00:41:50 Kylie 

The other skills that there's four skill sets of daring leadership rumbling with vulnerability living into values, so getting clarity of values. 

00:41:57 Kylie 

Braving trust so really understanding what trust looks like and then learning to rise. 

00:42:02 Kylie 

Which is how you get back up after a failure or disappointment or. 

00:42:04 Kylie 

A set back. 

00:42:05 Kylie 

But in the trust piece when she was looking at trust. 

00:42:09 Kylie 

And and the research into that what the one of the most surprising things was one a really big trust earning behavior. 

00:42:18 Kylie 

That she discovered was asking for help. 

00:42:22 Kylie 

Which seems really kind of intuitive. 

00:42:25 Kylie 

Yeah, but leaders will say when somebody asks for help. 

00:42:31 Kylie 

I find that I trust them more. 

00:42:33 Kylie 

Because I know that they're engaged and they're thinking about what's going on and they're willing to ask a question to make sure that they have got it right. 

00:42:46 Kylie 

Rather than kind of winging it or covering it up. 

00:42:49 Janine 

Right, yeah? 

00:42:51 Speaker 1 

That's it's. 

00:42:52 Kylie 

Kind of, you know, it's kind of counter intuitive when you think. 

00:42:54 Kylie 

About it, but. 

00:42:56 Kylie 

Asking for help is actually a big trust building behavior. 


You think about. 

00:43:00 Kylie 

That's right. 

00:43:01 Kylie 

Think about it with kids in the classroom. 

00:43:05 Janine 

It's a permission slip, isn't it? 

00:43:06 Janine 

Than to just go. 

00:43:08 Janine 

It's OK to limit, you don't know. 

00:43:09 Janine 

It's good to ask for help. 

00:43:10 Janine 

You'll actually be smiled upon for doing it, but I think that helps be a little bit more brave, doesn't it? 

00:43:17 Kylie 

Yeah, I mean I could sit here for like what you were saying. 

00:43:17 Janine 

Knowing that? 

00:43:20 Kylie 

You know I could sit here all with my Saturday trying to figure out this Lesson plan or trying to plan it. 

00:43:26 Kylie 

You know to the NTH degree. 

00:43:28 Kylie 

Or maybe I could sit down, you know, for half an hour with a friend and talk it through. 

00:43:35 Kylie 

And get some feedback and kind of get some assurance, but this is OK. 

00:43:40 Kylie 

Or, Umm, you know. 

00:43:42 Kylie 

Like so often we think we have to work it all out on our own, and I think that's that's where you can also see the silos happening in schools or on teams or. 

00:43:53 Kylie 

You know, in cultures where we're also armored up thinking that we have to be all be there, no and all have to be right rather than as a collective. 

00:44:01 Kylie 

That's our responsibility to work together. 

00:44:04 Kylie 

To constantly be learning and checking in with each other and getting it right together. 

00:44:09 Janine 

Yeah, and I feel like I've seen I've worked in primary and secondary and I feel like I see that collaborative behavior happen much more often in primary schools and. 

00:44:16 Janine 

It's it's gold. 

00:44:17 Janine 

What happens isn't it? 

00:44:19 Janine 

Yeah yeah, now I wanna. 

00:44:21 Janine 

I wanna dig a bit deeper with you Kaylee. 

00:44:24 Janine 

I have a question here that. 

00:44:28 Janine 

I guess what I want to know is you know what's your biggest lesson that you've brought out of? 

00:44:32 Janine 

Doing this work. 

00:44:36 Kylie 

From having worked now with. 

00:44:41 Kylie 

Probably a few 1000 people doing this curriculum I and and how you know and? 

00:44:49 Kylie 

You teach what you. 

00:44:50 Kylie 

Need to learn right? 

00:44:50 Kylie 

That's what is. 

00:44:51 Kylie 

Often fed and you know about educators, yeah. 

00:44:53 Speaker 1 


00:44:57 Kylie 

I, I think the two big pieces from this work that I've realized by getting this work in my own bones so I can show up with other people and and talk about it. 

00:45:07 Kylie 

Is the self compassion peace absolutely 100% game changing revolutionizes how you show up in the world and your capacity. 

00:45:16 Kylie 

To keep showing up over time, you know this sustainability. 

00:45:19 Kylie 

Of your leadership. 

00:45:21 Kylie 

But the other big piece is boundary. 

00:45:24 Kylie 

Umm and really being able to get clear about boundaries of what's OK and what's not. 

00:45:30 Kylie 

OK, yeah. 

00:45:32 Kylie 

And and being able to rumble with the discomfort of setting boundaries that might. 

00:45:41 Kylie 

Ruffle feathers with other people that people might get annoyed about or push back on. 

00:45:50 Kylie 

But in the absence of setting your own boundaries, other people just will fill up your cup, your priorities, your space, your commitments. 

00:46:02 Kylie 

Unless you are clear about your boundaries about what's OK and what's not OK and what you are prepared to do and what you're not prepared to do and what's driving those. 

00:46:11 Kylie 

I think we can find ourselves in a place of. 

00:46:16 Kylie 

Of burnout, you know, and, uh, big kind. 

00:46:19 Kylie 

Of a big. 

00:46:20 Kylie 

Uhm, way to look at at. 

00:46:23 Kylie 

Boundaries and understand what boundaries are. 

00:46:28 Kylie 

Anywhere in your life where you experience resentment, right? 

00:46:34 Kylie 

So resentment is a really good indicator that there's a boundary issue that needs to be addressed, yeah? 

00:46:43 Kylie 

So if I'm feeling resentful because I've been. 

00:46:48 Kylie 

Asked to do this thing. 

00:46:51 Kylie 

I need to investigate what's that bumping up against. 

00:46:56 Kylie 

You know, is it that? 

00:46:59 Kylie 

It's just been expected of me without anyone checking with. 

00:47:02 Kylie 

Me if if I have capacity to do this. 

00:47:05 Kylie 

Umm, uh. 

00:47:07 Kylie 

You know, have I said yes to doing this when actually I really wanted to say no? 

00:47:17 Kylie 

Uhm, you know, is there an injustice or inequity here that actually needs to be addressed that needs to? 

00:47:24 Kylie 

Be talked about. 

00:47:27 Kylie 

Rather than, you know, potentially just me sucking. 

00:47:29 Kylie 

It up or. 

00:47:30 Kylie 

Just, you know, looking the other way. 

00:47:33 Kylie 

Wherever there is resentment, there's normally a boundary issue that needs. 

00:47:37 Kylie 

To be discussed, explored observed. 

00:47:41 Kylie 

And and a boundary set and held. 

00:47:46 Kylie 

And when the context changes, boundaries change. 

00:47:50 Kylie 

And so I saw, you know, with the arrival of COVID and just the complete turning inside out of everything. 

00:48:00 Kylie 

Yeah, for a sustained period of time. 

00:48:03 Kylie 

Yeah, like the mess like the. 

00:48:05 Kylie 

Most hail with that you. 

00:48:09 Kylie 

You know it was, uh, recontracting of boundaries. 

00:48:12 Kylie 

Umm, so in this situation, what's OK and what's not OK, and it's really hard when there's so much of so much of what might be happening is out of our control. 

00:48:25 Kylie 

And and so we really need to focus what's what is in my control. 

00:48:31 Kylie 

What what can I control in this situation? 

00:48:34 Kylie 

And what and? 

00:48:35 Kylie 

What do I need to put push back on them? 

00:48:38 Kylie 

Uhm what? 

00:48:40 Kylie 

How do we renegotiate these boundaries together given the context of what's happening both in my personal life? 

00:48:47 Kylie 

You know of what's happening with me and in in in the professional context. 

00:48:55 Kylie 

And that's not easy work I think. 

00:48:58 Kylie 

Yeah, when I talk when I talk with leaders and when they asked me, you know what they? 

00:49:03 Kylie 

You know, some of the biggest things that they get out of this work is. 

00:49:08 Kylie 

Is self compassion and boundaries and and being able to rumble with the discomfort of boundaries and because often in those boundaries conversations are hard feedback conversations. 

00:49:25 Kylie 

And that's the that's the kind of other area like I was working with a bunch of. 

00:49:31 Kylie 

Primary school. 

00:49:33 Kylie 

Principles from New South Wales earlier this week. 

00:49:37 Kylie 

You know, and some of their calls to courage were things like these are principles saying I wanna be braver to have more difficult conversations. 

00:49:48 Kylie 

I want to be braver, implementing change, especially when I meet resistance in staff. 

00:49:52 Kylie 

I'm letting go of the things I've implemented. 

00:49:56 Kylie 

You know? 

00:49:56 Kylie 

Letting go of perfectionism. 

00:49:58 Kylie 

I I wanna be braver it sticking to my point when it's not a popular one. 

00:50:03 Janine 

Oh tough one yeah. 

00:50:05 Kylie 

I'd like to. 

00:50:06 Kylie 

Develop more skills and giving constructive feedback so. 

00:50:11 Kylie 

You know, so some of those. 

00:50:13 Kylie 

Some of those skills. 

00:50:16 Kylie 

Come because having those conversations work Ryerson boundaries to be. 

00:50:22 Kylie 

Upheld Morehead. 

00:50:26 Janine 

Yeah so. 

00:50:29 Janine 

What is? 

00:50:32 Janine 

You know we're talking about education and talked a lot about. 

00:50:34 Janine 

Grenades work, but. 

00:50:35 Janine 

What is fit for you personally? 

00:50:38 Janine 

What is your wish for education? 

00:50:42 Kylie 

Gosh, that's such a big question. 

00:50:46 Kylie 

I think I think. 

00:50:47 Kylie 

My biggest wish. 

00:50:49 Kylie 

For education as a whole. 

00:50:52 Kylie 

Is actually honoring what it is to be a human being. 

00:50:56 Kylie 

In the world. 

00:51:01 Kylie 

To really honor. 

00:51:04 Kylie 

The role of vulnerability for us as learners and our capacity to learn our capacity to show up and engage with each other and work together collaboratively collaboratively to solve. 

00:51:22 Kylie 

And address some of the biggest issues that we've ever had to face as as a as a species. 

00:51:31 Kylie 

So one of the things I'm just a short story to maybe finish up on, but. 

00:51:37 Kylie 

In 2019 I was part of a program called Homeward Bound, which is a global leadership program. 

00:51:43 Janine 

You are not brilliant. 

00:51:45 Speaker 1 

A lot, yeah. 

00:51:46 Janine 

I I know of this program yeah. 

00:51:49 Kylie 

So I was invited to. 

00:51:50 Kylie 

Join the visibility stream faculty and visibility is all about. 

00:51:57 Kylie 

Empowering well in the homeward bound context, empowering women in stem from women from leaders in women in stem backgrounds from around the world to have the will and the skill to bring the to to, you know, increase the impact of their work on the world and to raise their leadership capacity. 

00:52:19 Kylie 

And in that experience. 

00:52:23 Kylie 

It's a 12 month online program that culminates in a three week voyage around Antarctica readings. Yeah, 8080 women in stem from 26 different countries around the world, all on this one ship floating around, you know? 

00:52:38 Speaker 1 

It's not like. 

00:52:38 Janine 

The regular recipe for a tea party. 

00:52:43 Kylie 

Yeah, let's look at this. 

00:52:44 Kylie 

Look at things that come to mind when you know and. 

00:52:46 Kylie 

It's like that. 

00:52:46 Kylie 

Type of people and we spent a lot of time doing a lot of container building to build psychological safety before we went on the ship. 

00:52:54 Janine 

Yeah, so we. 

00:52:55 Kylie 

Actually did quite a bit of digging into some of the work that we do with. 

00:52:59 Kylie 


00:53:00 Kylie 

But but one of the women on the ship, who is part of the faculty as part of, I guess there Elder program. 

00:53:06 Kylie 

They called it. 

00:53:07 Kylie 

At the time, kind of, you know. 

00:53:09 Kylie 

The the the. 

00:53:10 Kylie 

Older, wiser, more senior experienced kind of women wears Christiana Figueres. 

00:53:17 Kylie 

And she was the UN executive secretary. 

00:53:21 Kylie 

Who led the negotiation of the Paris climate agreement? 

00:53:27 Kylie 

Like I still pinch myself too, but I I'm. 

00:53:31 Kylie 

This incredible woman from from South America who wound up leading perhaps the most important negotiation. 

00:53:42 Kylie 

Of our times yeah yeah it you know and it involved 195 nation state. 

00:53:50 Kylie 

Having to unanimously agree on these climate targets and pathway forwards, and I didn't realize. 

00:53:58 Kylie 

But when you go to you know anything that's kind of done in the UN. 

00:54:02 Kylie 

You have to get unanimous agreement for it to be enshrined, we. 

00:54:06 Kylie 

And and what was so interesting to me is learning about. 

00:54:09 Kylie 

Christiana was that she wasn't a politician. 

00:54:13 Kylie 

She wasn't an economist. 

00:54:15 Kylie 

She wasn't. 

00:54:16 Kylie 

She wasn't a scientist. 

00:54:19 Kylie 

She was actually a trained anthropologist, OK? 

00:54:24 Kylie 

And what that meant was what that meant was that she understood culture. 

00:54:24 Janine 

How I should say? 

00:54:32 Kylie 

She understood that to make change we need to meet people where they're at and seek to understand their stories and what's going on for them. 

00:54:44 Janine 

Brilliant yeah. 

00:54:46 Kylie 

And so during her tenure in that role. 

00:54:51 Kylie 

And I don't know if many. 

00:54:52 Kylie 

People realize this, but Paris? 

00:54:54 Kylie 

Climate agreement climate agreement which? 

00:54:57 Kylie 

You know which which happened in 2015? Two 1016. 

00:55:02 Kylie 

They had tried to. 

00:55:02 Kylie 

Do it at Copenhagen in 2009 and failed. 

00:55:06 Kylie 

Yeah, and so Cristiana came in. 

00:55:08 Kylie 

Kind of after that, and one of the things I realized was her being an anthropologist meant that instead of kind of sitting in, you know UN headquarters and trying to negotiate everything from from there. 

00:55:22 Kylie 

Is that she went and visited every single one. 

00:55:24 Kylie 

Of those countries. 

00:55:26 Kylie 

She went to seek to understand. 

00:55:30 Kylie 

195 countries, yeah, and to seek to understand what's going on for. 

00:55:35 Janine 

Them gosh. 

00:55:36 Kylie 

And to show up. 

00:55:39 Kylie 

And to show interest and to be curious and to honor the reality of what was going on for those people and to listen genuinely with curiosity about their concerns and their limitations. 

00:55:51 Kylie 

And what would need to happen in order for this agreement to take place? 

00:55:54 Janine 

Right, that takes that. 

00:55:58 Kylie 

Takes an extraordinary amount of self awareness. 

00:56:03 Kylie 

To be able to go to a country, say for example like Saudi Arabia, where as a female negotiator. 

00:56:12 Kylie 

She had to potentially put aside. 

00:56:16 Kylie 

Perhaps some of her own kind of you know, beliefs about you know the role of women in. 

00:56:24 Kylie 

To meet these people where they're at for this higher purpose of. 

00:56:28 Kylie 

You know this. 

00:56:29 Kylie 

Needing to come to an agreement about how we're going to go forward and solve this massive problem, which affects all of us. 

00:56:36 Kylie 

You need to have a pretty good sense of self. 

00:56:39 Kylie 

You need to have a pretty good sense of your own emotional reactivity and develop some skills in navigating your own emotional landscape in order to be able to kind of create the collaborations that. 

00:56:54 Kylie 

We so desperately need going forward. 

00:56:56 Kylie 

We need to be able to drop our own egos and show up in service of the work in each other. 

00:57:03 Kylie 

With the clarity of our own values, you know. 

00:57:07 Kylie 

With a with. 

00:57:07 Kylie 

A with a sense of purpose and impact and and and you know. 

00:57:13 Kylie 

And one of the other things was I learned from her boundaries. 

00:57:15 Kylie 

So even. 

00:57:16 Kylie 

In her role. 

00:57:17 Kylie 

She she never took meetings after 7:00 o'clock. 

00:57:23 Kylie 

Tonight, you know shared this massive, huge global role, but she was like, no, I don't do. 

00:57:28 Kylie 

I don't do evening meetings. 

00:57:29 Kylie 

I don't do dinner meetings, you know, I I finish my day at this time and that enables me the space and the UM, resetting and. 

00:57:38 Kylie 

The you know. 

00:57:40 Kylie 

Rejuvenation that I need to be able to come back to. 

00:57:42 Kylie 

Work tomorrow and go again. 

00:57:45 Kylie 

So she held space and she modeled that for the team that she worked with as well. 

00:57:50 Kylie 

So it became expected that this is when Christina is available. 

00:57:54 Kylie 

This is not when she's available. 

00:57:56 Kylie 

This is what she can do. 

00:57:57 Kylie 

This is what she can't do. 

00:57:58 Kylie 

And so I guess on my wish for education is too. 

00:58:04 Kylie 

Is to really have a greater appreciation for what it is to be a human? 

00:58:08 Kylie 

Come to recognize the diversity. 

00:58:11 Kylie 

Uhm, that exist within us, and to find a pathway to each other rather than seeing it as division. 

00:58:21 Kylie 

And I think for I think a lot of that does come from our own self awareness of what it is to be human today, the the compassion that we can. 

00:58:31 Kylie 

Offer ourselves, I think when we show up to ourselves with more compassion where. 

00:58:37 Kylie 

We're more able to do that for others as well. 

00:58:40 Kylie 

Yeah, and that when we practice setting boundaries for ourselves, we can role model what that looks like for other people as well. 

00:58:53 Janine 

I'm I'm getting the sense that this is going to be one of those episodes that our teachers listen to over and over and over again. 

00:59:00 Janine 

I can't even draw the threads together for that because there were so many learnings and ideas that are applicable to our own lives. 

00:59:08 Janine 

So yeah. 

00:59:11 Janine 

Thank you. 

00:59:12 Janine 

I feel very inspired. 

00:59:15 Kylie 

That's my pleasure. 

00:59:16 Kylie 

Thank you for the opportunity to do that, and I I love working with educators because I know that not only is there the opportunity to help. 

00:59:29 Kylie 

In the sustainability of their own practice of being educators, but educators influence generations. 

00:59:38 Kylie 

And it can just take one educator. 

00:59:41 Kylie 

In your life. 

00:59:43 Kylie 

To change the trajectory. 

00:59:46 Kylie 

Of someone's life, hopefully for good. 

00:59:49 Kylie 

Uhm, and you know when I think about. 

00:59:54 Kylie 

What has led me to doing the work that I do today and where some of my strengths come from and the things that I get most joy out of I. 

01:00:01 Kylie 

Can track it back to some really. 

01:00:03 Kylie 

Wonderful educators that I've had in my life and and in fact in fact one thing that's really interesting. 

01:00:10 Kylie 

The best leader I've ever had in the corporate world was a primary school teacher who then went out into business. 

01:00:17 Kylie 

Oh yeah, skills as you probably don't want to say this, but skills are very transferable. 

01:00:22 Kylie 

Great teachers have very transferable skills across a broad range of industry. 

01:00:27 Kylie 

Please come so when I think about when I think about the role of education and educators doing some of the most important work there is to be done in the world and and doing it in a way that really honors the whole humanity of a student and the whole humanity of a teacher. 

01:00:47 Kylie 

That's where I think. 

01:00:47 Kylie 

That there's. 

01:00:49 Kylie 

That's what gets me excited about working with teachers. 

01:00:54 Janine 

Brilliant, I'm excited to thank you so much. 

01:01:00 Kylie 

It's absolutely my pleasure. 

01:01:01 Kylie 

Thanks for the opportunity.