In this episode, I'm joined by Kylie Lewis, founder of Of Kin. Kylie speaks about why vulnerability is needed in schools.
Kylie is a leadership developer and climate reality leader specialising in building brave leaders and courage cultures. She is a certified facilitator of Dr Brené Brown’s work on courage, vulnerability, shame and resilience (The Daring Way™, Rising Strong™ & Dare To Lead™), a Conversational Intelligence practitioner and a systemic team coach. Her vision is to build capacity for brave conversations in boardrooms, classrooms and loungerooms across Australia.
Your homework:
Further learning related to this episode/references:
Learn more at teacherhealer.com
Music by Twisterium from Pixabay.
ZeroCo
Ditch single-use plastics
In this episode, I'm joined by Kylie Lewis, founder of Of Kin. Kylie speaks about why vulnerability is needed in schools.
Kylie is a leadership developer and climate reality leader specialising in building brave leaders and courage cultures. She is a certified facilitator of Dr Brené Brown’s work on courage, vulnerability, shame and resilience (The Daring Way™, Rising Strong™ & Dare To Lead™), a Conversational Intelligence practitioner and a systemic team coach. Her vision is to build capacity for brave conversations in boardrooms, classrooms and loungerooms across Australia.
Your homework:
Further learning related to this episode/references:
Learn more at teacherhealer.com
Music by Twisterium from Pixabay.
ZeroCo
Ditch single-use plastics
00:00:01 Janine
Today I'm joined by Kylie Lewis who is a leadership developer, climate reality leader and founder of Of Kin, a training organization based in Melbourne.
00:00:12 Janine
It specializes in building brave leaders and courage cultures.
00:00:16 Janine
Kylie is a certified facilitator of Doctor Brené Brown's work on courage, vulnerability, shame and resilience.
00:00:23 Janine
A conversational intelligence practitioner and a systemic team coach.
00:00:27 Janine
Her vision is to build capacity for brave conversations in boardrooms, classrooms and lounge rooms across Australia.
00:00:43 Janine
Welcome Kylie, thank you for joining us in teacher Healer today.
00:00:46 Janine
Thanks so.
00:00:46 Janine
For having me, I'm actually.
00:00:48 Janine
Very excited to have the privilege of speaking to you.
00:00:52 Janine
Not only 'cause you're just a fantastic special human being 'cause we had a chat earlier, but also because you know you're a certified practitioner in the daring.
00:01:01 Janine
Sure am and I am a Brené Brown fangirl.
00:01:05 Janine
So it's super great and I want to learn more.
00:01:08 Janine
So I thought you might be able to kick this off by telling us a little bit about your work, and I know you've been in schools and especially early learning centers.
00:01:16 Janine
So I'm going to hand it over.
00:01:18 Kylie
Yeah, sure, so I have a company called Of Kin and in my in the in the in my business I work really with leaders and developing courageous, daring, brave leaders. I do that predominantly through public workshops and executive coaching and working inside organisations with their leadership teams.
00:01:41 Kylie
And I've been doing that.
00:01:44 Kylie
I've had my own business for eight years, but I'm really in the last three years, in particular, working exclusively with Renee Brown stair to lead.
00:01:54 Kylie
So the daring way curriculum that you mentioned just before that came out of her work in in daring greatly and rising strong.
00:02:02 Kylie
Which is fantastic work that is sums up the research that Renee has done in the areas of courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy over the last.
00:02:13 Kylie
For say 15 years.
00:02:15 Kylie
And then in 2018 she published a book which was really taking the same concepts but studying them in an organizational context.
00:02:24 Kylie
And that really was the area that I wanted to dig into having, you know, having having had a career of you know the last 20 years working in organisations, I could see the real value of the stuff that she had talked about in daring greatly and rising strong but really wanted it in a context of organizational development.
00:02:45 Kylie
'cause I could just say that there was a massive need for that.
00:02:48 Kylie
So yeah, so I've been working working with that pretty much.
00:02:52 Kylie
Uhm, exclusively for the last three years.
00:02:55 Janine
Brilliant and has it been a good time.
00:02:57 Kylie
Yeah, it's been amazing.
00:02:59 Kylie
It's the most rewarding work I've probably ever done and I found it.
00:03:04 Kylie
It can be a little bit selfish because every time I dig into the work and deliver the curriculum and work alongside people exploring it and.
00:03:14 Kylie
Letting that work sink into their bones, I learn something, you know it, it helps deepen my leadership practice as well so you know, the most common feedback that I get from people is that it's either made them feel comma as a leader because they have a greater awareness and an insight of how they operate.
00:03:35 Kylie
Nation, what their triggers are, and they have an appreciation for their emotional landscape.
00:03:40 Kylie
As a leader.
00:03:42 Kylie
And have some tools in their toolkit to help approach that and to rumble with, you know, the difficult parts of leadership, particularly around having hard conversations and giving and receiving feedback.
00:03:54 Kylie
Setting boundaries.
00:03:56 Kylie
Those kinds of things so people feel comma because of that and and they also say that it hasn't just.
00:04:06 Kylie
Impacted the way that they show up at work.
00:04:08 Kylie
It's how they show up in their lives as a whole person, and so they're really talking about.
00:04:14 Kylie
You know the self awareness of who am I in the world no matter which arena that I show up in and and how do I?
00:04:21 Kylie
How do I want to be in the world?
00:04:23 Kylie
What what choices do I have now that I've got sort of a bit more of a?
00:04:26 Kylie
Awareness of how I tick.
00:04:28 Janine
Umm, it sounds like much more than a leadership program.
00:04:33 Kylie
I sometimes sneak Lee say that.
00:04:37 Kylie
I think I think.
00:04:38 Kylie
As human beings, there is somewhat maybe have a tendency to give priority to professional development that we see that there's a payoff in terms of our career or our work or our competency in that area.
00:04:56 Kylie
And perhaps we don't tend to that as much in our personal development.
00:05:02 Kylie
And so.
00:05:03 Janine
I think I think.
00:05:04 Kylie
Sort of some of the magic of data lead is that it's very much within an organizational context and how you show up in a leadership capacity.
00:05:12 Kylie
But it will change who you are as a human being.
00:05:14 Kylie
Fundamentally in in all parts of your life.
00:05:18 Kylie
So there's a little bit of kind of justifying.
00:05:21 Kylie
What I think I need, but then filling the gap is probably what you actually do need.
00:05:28 Janine
If you know that old chestnut, yeah.
00:05:30 Janine
Tell them what they want given.
00:05:31 Janine
What they need, isn't it?
00:05:33 Janine
That's exactly it, yeah, so this is.
00:05:36 Janine
The bit that I'm really interested in, because you know, teacher healer.
00:05:41 Janine
My vision is that education can be a force for positive change in the world and healing, and you know you're working with educational leaders, so to heal themselves by the sounds of it in some ways, tell me a little bit more what what kind of process does a person go through in one of your programs?
00:06:00 Kylie
The curriculum, the way.
00:06:01 Kylie
That it's sort of been set up is.
00:06:05 Kylie
Having some self awareness about what gets in the way of you showing up, perhaps as a brave leader or with a little bit more courage in your career so you know we start from the place of investigating the question of where would you like to be braver in as a leader, you know.
00:06:24 Kylie
What is your personal call to courage as a leader?
00:06:27 Kylie
And I think we don't very often stop and ask ourselves that question.
00:06:32 Kylie
And so that sort of deliberate reflection, sort of straight off the bat about what sort of getting in.
00:06:39 Kylie
The way of.
00:06:41 Kylie
How I would like to be, you know, and for many people, it's kind of like, well, actually.
00:06:45 Kylie
How would I like to be?
00:06:46 Kylie
Is there do I have a choice?
00:06:49 Kylie
Yeah, is is there.
00:06:50 Kylie
Is there a way?
00:06:51 Kylie
Through some some of these things that I'm bumping up against all that I'm feeling deeply uncomfortable or unsure how to tackle.
00:06:59 Kylie
So we start off.
00:07:00 Kylie
We start off there.
00:07:01 Kylie
We sort of say you know, where would you like to be braver in your working life?
00:07:05 Kylie
Uhm, you know where are the places where you're kind of holding yourself back?
00:07:11 Kylie
What would you like to change and what are some of the things that you might identify that you might need?
00:07:18 Kylie
You know what are some of the skills that you think you'd like to develop in order to be able to answer that call.
00:07:24 Kylie
Uhm so.
00:07:27 Kylie
If anyone followed grenades work before.
00:07:29 Kylie
You know they would.
00:07:30 Kylie
Have heard her talk about the man in.
00:07:32 Kylie
The arena quote.
00:07:33 Kylie
And and how?
00:07:35 Kylie
It's not the critic who counts.
00:07:37 Kylie
It's actually the man who's in the arena, who you know is in in the arena of their lives.
00:07:43 Kylie
And striving to do their best and to to make change.
00:07:47 Kylie
Uhm well.
00:07:49 Kylie
You know in.
00:07:50 Kylie
In in the greatest kind of outcome will be.
00:07:53 Kylie
Festival, but for many of for many of us we will actually, you know, fail at doing that, and we'll end up face down in the arena.
00:08:03 Kylie
But the most important thing is.
00:08:04 Kylie
That while we were doing that.
00:08:05 Kylie
We were daring greatly, so I've really, yeah, really hacked that quote, but.
00:08:10 Kylie
The idea the idea is.
00:08:11 Kylie
That we can often sit outside of the arena.
00:08:13 Kylie
Of our lives, for fear.
00:08:14 Kylie
Of what the critics will think.
00:08:16 Kylie
And and sometimes those critics are very real.
00:08:21 Kylie
You know, tangible people in our world.
00:08:24 Kylie
Sometimes it's the imagined stories that we've made up about what might happen, and and sometimes we're our own critic as well and can get in our.
00:08:33 Kylie
Own way of.
00:08:34 Kylie
Showing up more bravely.
00:08:36 Kylie
So we take that idea of of you know where would you like to be?
00:08:40 Kylie
Braver to be able to get into the arena and and show up in those ways.
00:08:45 Kylie
And then we start investigating well what what is getting in the way and what what do we need to do that and so we start off really exploring vulnerability and the the discomfort of vulnerability which remained defines as risk uncertainty and emotional exposure.
00:09:06 Kylie
Umm, and nobody likes to feel those things.
00:09:10 Kylie
Nobody likes to feel exposed, you know, uncertain or you know to really take on much risk.
00:09:19 Kylie
We spend most of our lives trying to get comfortable trying to get sick.
00:09:23 Kylie
You're trying to, you know, keep a lid on everything.
00:09:27 Kylie
Uhm to stay safe.
00:09:30 Kylie
But what we don't realize is that often in our hunt for sort of staying, staying safe and staying out of vulnerability is, you know, and often we do that because we fear things like.
00:09:46 Kylie
Uh, we do fear uncertainty.
00:09:48 Kylie
We we we.
00:09:49 Kylie
We have fears about what what that might have for us.
00:09:52 Kylie
We might feel anxious, we might be worried about feeling shame, or we might feel shame.
00:09:58 Kylie
And so we try and minimize all of those things.
00:10:01 Kylie
And when we shut down vulnerability when we shutdown risk uncertainty and emotional exposure, we shut down actually.
00:10:06 Kylie
Our opportunity to experience.
00:10:09 Kylie
All of the other things that also happen in the birth place of vulnerabilities.
00:10:14 Kylie
You know, love, belonging, and joy also come out of vulnerability.
00:10:19 Kylie
Courage, empathy, inclusivity.
00:10:24 Kylie
Uhm, giving and giving hard feedback.
00:10:29 Kylie
Ethical decision making resilience and resetting those are also all born in vulnerability, so we spend quite a lot of time upfront.
00:10:39 Kylie
Really investigating.
00:10:41 Kylie
What are some other myths around vulnerability?
00:10:44 Kylie
Uhm, how they might be showing up in our leadership practice.
00:10:48 Kylie
Uhm, we investigate.
00:10:50 Kylie
You know what're the?
00:10:51 Kylie
What're the noisy things that we hear when we're going into the arena.
00:10:55 Kylie
You know whose voices are we hearing a man?
00:10:58 Kylie
Who's who's who's?
00:10:59 Kylie
Got power and and then what do we need in order to be able to step forward?
00:11:04 Kylie
Into into answering that call, you know who is in our empathy seats.
00:11:08 Kylie
Now arena.
00:11:09 Kylie
Uhm, what kind of self compassion can we offer ourselves and we think about doing something brave.
00:11:16 Kylie
So we spent a lot of time really rumbling with vulnerability because it's the foundational piece for a brave life.
00:11:24 Kylie
But we often build, you know, we've often grown up either thinking that vulnerability is weakness.
00:11:31 Kylie
That vulnerability is not something that we do and or we think we can go it alone, UM.
00:11:41 Kylie
Or that vulnerability requires us to over share everything in our lives?
00:11:44 Kylie
You know, there's there's.
00:11:45 Kylie
There's lots of vulnerabilities as sorry there's lots of nips around vulnerability that we really spend some time investigating and and then talking about.
00:11:54 Kylie
You know what we need to be able to do to to rumble with the discomfort of vulnerability so we don't shut down.
00:12:01 Kylie
All the opportunities that come in being able to sit in the discomfort of it.
00:12:06 Janine
Gosh, I'm the more I'm listening to you, the more I'm like.
00:12:09 Janine
Gosh, it's so great.
00:12:10 Janine
Leaders are doing.
00:12:10 Janine
This, but it could work at all layers like wouldn't you just love for all teachers to do this when you love for the students to be?
00:12:18 Janine
You know that question.
00:12:19 Janine
About what's your?
00:12:20 Janine
Call to courage for a teacher that is an epic question, like because.
00:12:26 Janine
Everyday stepping in front of a class of unpredictable kids.
00:12:30 Janine
It's, uh, colder, courage, isn't it?
00:12:31 Janine
And and so why do you keep showing up?
00:12:34 Janine
And I I guess I'm gonna throw it out to the listeners to put on their list to think about this week.
00:12:38 Janine
Let's you call to.
00:12:39 Janine
Why do you keep showing?
00:12:41 Janine
Up, you know the other thing.
00:12:43 Janine
I really loved was that.
00:12:44 Janine
I do have self compassion.
00:12:47 Janine
I don't know if you might unpack that one.
00:12:48 Kylie
A little bit more.
00:12:49 Kylie
Yeah, I I just want to quickly go back.
00:12:52 Kylie
Yeah, I think the I think teachers are absolutely among amongst the bravest people and professions because every time you step into a classroom your Stephanie.
00:13:02 Kylie
You're stepping into an arena.
00:13:04 Kylie
And and yeah, it is uncertain what will happen.
00:13:07 Kylie
There's no guarantees.
00:13:08 Kylie
So how the class is?
00:13:10 Kylie
Going to go, you know how.
00:13:12 Kylie
How everyone else is showing up to that?
00:13:14 Kylie
And so yeah, absolutely.
00:13:17 Kylie
And hats off to educators everywhere.
00:13:21 Kylie
I I in actually delivering the data lead curriculum, self compassion I think is probably one of the most important takeaways that participants have.
00:13:36 Kylie
So one of the.
00:13:38 Kylie
One of the things that we often find ourselves in when we're thinking about being brave.
00:13:46 Kylie
And we're thinking about going into the arena, and it's those moments where we think about having that hard conversation or pushing back on an idea or challenging the status quo.
00:13:57 Kylie
Or you know, pitching a new way of doing things like all of those arena moments that are full of discomfort.
00:14:06 Kylie
Anywhere where there's that vulnerability, you know.
00:14:10 Kylie
It's in those moments that we have a choice to think.
00:14:13 Kylie
Am I going to say this?
00:14:14 Kylie
Am I going to challenge this?
00:14:16 Kylie
Am I going to call this out?
00:14:18 Kylie
Am I going?
00:14:19 Kylie
To put.
00:14:20 Kylie
This into the mix of what's happening.
00:14:22 Kylie
And and.
00:14:25 Kylie
We and it seemed that moment where we can, where we can think, UM.
00:14:30 Kylie
You know we can hear the voice of shame, so grenade talks about shame.
00:14:33 Kylie
Driving 2 messages.
00:14:35 Kylie
Never good enough.
00:14:37 Kylie
So you know or never enough, never enough mess so you know.
00:14:42 Kylie
Well I'm not experienced enough to contribute this or I'm not senior enough to be contributing to this.
00:14:51 Kylie
I'm I'm not old enough to be experience, you know, to be doing these things like you know.
00:14:56 Kylie
So whatever, you're not.
00:14:57 Kylie
Enoughness is, and even if you can get past that is well.
00:15:00 Kylie
Who who who AM
00:15:01 Kylie
I who do I think I am to be contributing this anyway, you know?
00:15:05 Kylie
And it it's.
00:15:06 Kylie
In those spaces that we can find ourselves holding ourselves back and she calls these the cheap seats.
00:15:11 Kylie
Or no, she sorry she calls these the season ticket holders in the arena and so if there are different kind of sections in the arena of where we think we're going to be brave, there's the season ticket.
00:15:21 Kylie
Holders of comparison.
00:15:22 Kylie
Shame scarcity that always show up.
00:15:25 Kylie
When we think about doing something brave.
00:15:27 Kylie
Uhm, there's the cheap seats of you know people hurling advice and criticism and judgement, but who will never actually be in the arena and doing the things that you're doing, there's the box seats you know which are normally held by the people who built the arena who hold power.
00:15:45 Kylie
You know who can potentially be.
00:15:47 Kylie
Operating from stereotypes.
00:15:49 Kylie
And and then the two most important seats in the arena.
00:15:53 Kylie
Empathy and self compassion and the people in the empathy seats are the people who you know only want the best for you that can rumble with the discomfort of saying.
00:16:04 Kylie
Yeah, that was really hard.
00:16:05 Kylie
And yeah, I can see that you did make a mistake and I'm going to be here and help to help you clean it up and and and push you back in the arena.
00:16:15 Kylie
And sometimes we need professional empathy seat sitters in that area.
00:16:19 Kylie
You know one of the exercises that we ask in the curriculum is who is in your empathy seats.
00:16:24 Kylie
You know who is going to show up without judgment without a hidden agenda and and he's only going to be there for the best of you and.
00:16:32 Kylie
It's generally a very small number of people that do that, and sometimes you even need to have a professional.
00:16:39 Kylie
You know empathy seats that are at like a mentor or a coach or a.
00:16:42 Kylie
Therapist and and the other most important.
00:16:45 Kylie
Seat is the seat of self compassion.
00:16:49
When we when?
00:16:50 Kylie
We hear the the season ticket holders of shame.
00:16:53 Kylie
It can often be a very noisy section that's saying.
00:16:57 Kylie
You know in that not enoughness that I'm the only one experiencing this lack of confidence or this.
00:17:06 Kylie
You know this this struggle, this hard moment that you know it's me alone kind of that's not adequate in this situation or experiencing these emotions.
00:17:16 Kylie
The voice of self compassion recognizes that.
00:17:19 Kylie
Those emotions feeling that way.
00:17:22 Kylie
You know being uncomfortable is part of common humanity.
00:17:26 Kylie
It's not me alone that is going through these issues or having these doubts or worried about these things or concerned about these things.
00:17:36 Kylie
So the voice of self compassion 1.
00:17:41 Kylie
The same voice that you would offer to a loved one who maybe use or going through something difficult.
00:17:48 Kylie
A difficult challenge.
00:17:50 Kylie
That same care and concern that you have and warmth that you have for that other person.
00:17:55 Kylie
You offer to yourself.
00:17:59 Kylie
And so you know, grenade draws on Kristin Neff work in self compassion and it's basically talking to yourself the way that you would talk.
00:18:09 Kylie
To someone you love.
00:18:11 Kylie
So for example, if you if if you could see your best friend.
00:18:17 Kylie
Struggling with the thing that you're struggling with at the moment.
00:18:22 Kylie
What would you wish for them?
00:18:25 Kylie
What would you wish that they would do for themselves, or what advice or support or encouragement would you give to them?
00:18:35 Kylie
And cultivating you, giving that to yourself.
00:18:40 Kylie
Yeah, so it's that it's talking to ourselves like someone we we love.
00:18:46 Kylie
It's recognizing that the emotions, the difficulties that I'm facing, and the emotions that go along with that.
00:18:53 Kylie
Aren't just me having a hard time of this situation that as a human being alive on the planet today, I'm having a very human experience that is common to the constraints to the concerns to you know, to the situations that I find myself in.
00:19:12 Kylie
So it's not me.
00:19:13 Kylie
Alone, I'm never.
00:19:15 Kylie
I'm not gonna be the only one that has ever struggled with this in the past or to struggle with it in the future.
00:19:20 Kylie
It's just what's with me at this point in time.
00:19:23 Kylie
Mm-hmm yeah.
00:19:24 Kylie
And that third piece, then, is the mindfulness peace.
00:19:27 Kylie
It's it's the mindfulness piece of being able to recognize and identify those emotions.
00:19:32 Kylie
And and and this is where emotional literacy becomes really important.
00:19:37 Kylie
Being able to recognize and name our emotions.
00:19:41 Kylie
And instead of denying them or pushing them away or diminishing them.
00:19:45 Kylie
Or pretend that they're not in there.
00:19:46 Kylie
They're not there.
00:19:47 Kylie
We can say to ourselves, gosh, I'm
00:19:52 Kylie
Feeling in struggle right now I I'm feeling anxious.
00:19:56 Kylie
I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and worried.
00:19:59 Kylie
I'm feeling frustrated and you know, I might be feeling a bit angry with how things are going at the moment.
00:20:08 Kylie
And and being able to sit with that rather than diminish it or push it away or pretend it's not.
00:20:13 Kylie
There and just observe it.
00:20:16 Kylie
Just going well, what what's this telling me what's this telling me that's important?
00:20:20 Kylie
To my values to my contribution to my purpose, and then I need to be paying attention to.
00:20:28 Kylie
And I can I can allow myself to acknowledge these emotions to maybe sit with them for a moment.
00:20:36 Kylie
To get curious about them.
00:20:38 Kylie
And then have some strategies to move through it.
00:20:40 Kylie
I don't have to set up camp in these emotions, I can experience them.
00:20:44 Kylie
I can visit them.
00:20:45 Kylie
I can be informed by the data that they're trying to communicate to me about what's what's happening and what's going important.
00:20:52 Kylie
What am I bumping up against that?
00:20:53 Kylie
I need to get curious about.
00:20:56 Kylie
And and I can move through them.
00:20:59 Kylie
So self compassion is really that talking to yourself like someone you love, recognizing that it is part of the common humanity rather than only you're going through.
00:21:10 Kylie
This situation.
00:21:12 Kylie
And the mindfulness to just pay attention to your emotional life.
00:21:16 Kylie
That it's important and that it has information and that.
00:21:20 Kylie
Whether or not we want to acknowledge it, emotions actually get the first crack at anything that happens in our life.
00:21:27 Kylie
We rationalize thinking, you know that we are thinking doing beings who sometimes feel.
00:21:33 Kylie
But the but the fact is that we are feeling human beings.
00:21:36 Kylie
Emotions will get the first crack at it and and so we need to be able to get a bit better perhaps than what we have in the past and and maybe.
00:21:46 Kylie
For any of.
00:21:47 Kylie
Your early childhood educators or primary educators.
00:21:51 Kylie
I know they spend a lot of time.
00:21:53 Kylie
In you know social, social, emotional intelligence, space.
00:21:56 Kylie
Now a.
00:21:58 Kylie
Lot of us.
00:21:58 Kylie
Older folk have a bit of catching up to do on hopefully what's happening with the younger generation and through those curriculum.
00:22:04 Janine
Now yeah, brilliant.
00:22:06 Janine
I can't wait to see that sort of start to flow into secondary and hopefully secondary teachers can take that on board to.
00:22:11 Janine
I know that sometimes things don't translate between the earlier years in the upper years.
00:22:15 Janine
But yeah, wonderful work, but.
00:22:18 Janine
I'm I'm really thinking about, you know you're talking about mistakes in that sense of not being alone, and I know that.
00:22:24 Janine
In schools there is more and more collaboration happening, but certainly the schools that I've been in there's still a very siloed environment in many subject areas where.
00:22:35 Janine
Yeah, you might have your faculty and you might have your meetings and everything, but when you walk.
00:22:39 Janine
In front.
00:22:39 Janine
Of the class you there in your own most of the time, and there's this real great sense of autonomy that haven't freedom that happens with that.
00:22:48 Janine
But I I feel like.
00:22:50 Janine
You know, I've seen a lot of schools try to implement observation programs and feedback and.
00:22:55 Janine
Things and, and I know a lot of teachers are a bit frightened of that, and they don't like looking like they make mistakes.
00:23:02 Janine
And I think leaders are definitely in that category.
00:23:05 Janine
Principles are, gosh, you wouldn't want to be called out doing something wrong in some situations.
00:23:09 Janine
The sticky sticky ones that they get.
00:23:13 Janine
So I guess.
00:23:15 Speaker 1
But what's the?
00:23:16 Janine
Way to break that down is it just we need to talk about it more like do we just need to say yeah I'm human and I messed up.
00:23:21 Janine
I did this thing rather than keep it all secret or what's your solution?
00:23:26 Kylie
So one of the pieces that goes sort of extends further with this art.
00:23:30 Kylie
With this metaphor of being in the arena, is this idea of how we are more up ourselves when we go into those arenas.
00:23:41 Kylie
And so in the research grenaded she was, she was trying to understand.
00:23:47 Kylie
From observing transformational leaders or brave the brave leaders that she had identified what was what was the you know?
00:23:55 Kylie
What were some of the differences in how they approached?
00:23:59 Kylie
Hard conversations giving feedback.
00:24:03 Kylie
Receiving feedback handling change.
00:24:08 Kylie
And she talks about what she calls armored leadership behaviors versus daring leadership behaviors.
00:24:17 Kylie
And So what she found out was through the research was that we can all feel afraid.
00:24:23 Speaker 1
Made at work.
00:24:25 Kylie
We can all be fearful of being observed of getting feedback or things not going to plan of making mistakes.
00:24:32 Kylie
And but that's not necessarily what keeps us from being a brave leader, so her research found that even the bravest leaders can can can feel fear.
00:24:43 Kylie
So it's not necessarily the case of, you know.
00:24:46 Kylie
Uhm, you you can only be courageous if you don't have any fear like.
00:24:52 Kylie
That's actually a big.
00:24:53 Kylie
Like a big myth as well.
00:24:55 Kylie
Umm, UM.
00:24:57 Kylie
Coverage is actually.
00:24:58 Kylie
Fear walking is what Susan David out of emotional agility, talks about.
00:25:02 Kylie
Yeah, so yeah.
00:25:03 Kylie
So courage isn't the absence of fear.
00:25:06 Kylie
Courage is the ability to say.
00:25:08 Kylie
I can feel afraid of actually what's going on right now, but you have a choice.
00:25:15 Kylie
You have a choice.
00:25:16 Kylie
Have to say.
00:25:17 Kylie
So I'm gonna armor up and I'm going to.
00:25:22 Kylie
I'm going to be the Noah and I'm gonna always put myself as someone who has the right answer.
00:25:28 Kylie
I'm I'm going to potentially avoid hard conversations wherever I can.
00:25:35 Kylie
I'm I'm going to hold a position where I'm I strive for so much perfection that it's not my issue and it's not my problem.
00:25:47 Kylie
Because, you know, I strive so much to have everything right all the time that it's probably going to be somebody else that's stuffed something up, you know?
00:25:56 Kylie
So she talks about this idea of of weaken armor up and in armoring up it really drives disconnection.
00:26:05
Right?
00:26:05 Kylie
It really pushes it.
00:26:07 Kylie
It pushes people away when.
00:26:09 Kylie
Uhm, you know I'm carrying around this armor and the big one that we talk about. You know there's 38 different behaviors that she has in the latest version of the curriculum that was released last year.
00:26:20 Kylie
The biggest one is for many of us, and I think this is particularly true of teachers who are in the position of having to be the Noah and having to be right, you know.
00:26:29 Kylie
Because we're imparting knowledge and you know, we're we're, we're holding space for learning and we ask, you know, we have some expertise.
00:26:38 Kylie
It's this idea that if I always have to be the know and be right, then I'm less likely to take the space of.
00:26:47 Kylie
I'm here to be a learner and to get it right.
00:26:50 Kylie
And so if we want to be daring, leaders are holding that space of I'm a I'm an ongoing learner.
00:26:58 Kylie
I'm a curious.
00:27:00 Kylie
Person I may not always get it right, so I'm here to learn how to get it right.
00:27:06 Kylie
Over time I will ask lots of questions.
00:27:08 Kylie
I will be open to feedback.
00:27:10 Kylie
I will recognize that you know different experiences that other people have.
00:27:16 Kylie
Different education, different cultural backgrounds will have.
00:27:20 Kylie
A whole range of things to.
00:27:23 Kylie
Offer that I couldn't possibly know about.
00:27:26 Kylie
So we spend a lot of time talking about.
00:27:31 Kylie
Being armored up and what we need to do to be able to to put our armor down in the arena so that we can have vulnerable kinds of conversations.
00:27:42 Kylie
So if you know the situation that you described about, say, being observed in the classroom.
00:27:48 Kylie
Uhm, you know they could.
00:27:50 Kylie
That that can be.
00:27:51 Kylie
That can be something that I imagine teachers could feel quite anxious about.
00:27:56 Kylie
You know, they know that they're being evaluated.
00:27:58 Kylie
They know that they might, you know, be gonna get some hard feedback at the end of that, you know, and there can.
00:28:04 Kylie
Be this whole.
00:28:05 Kylie
Idea of OK I'm gonna put I'm gonna put a uh you know some armor I I want this to go perfectly I want to you know I'm performing perfecting.
00:28:16 Kylie
Pleasing, you know.
00:28:17 Kylie
Trying to do all of.
00:28:18 Kylie
That yeah.
00:28:20 Kylie
And and when it doesn't go to plan 'cause no plan survives its impact with reality.
00:28:29 Kylie
You know where do we go with?
00:28:30 Kylie
That you know what's our, what?
00:28:32 Kylie
What is our reaction when things don't go well?
00:28:35 Kylie
How do we?
00:28:36 Kylie
How do we handle then the discomfort of of failure or disappointment or set back?
00:28:44 Kylie
And and for many of us you know we maybe not have haven't seen it.
00:28:49 Kylie
Well, model very well.
00:28:50 Kylie
We haven't necessarily seen other people.
00:28:53 Kylie
Bounce, be able to bounce back with.
00:28:56 Kylie
Come with grace and with compassion and empathy when things haven't gone well.
00:29:04 Kylie
So you know, in that scenario that you talked about with the teacher, a conversation with with perhaps the person that's coming in to observe, and the and the teacher beforehand, that is an assurance that we're actually both on the same side.
00:29:19 Kylie
This is actually a learning opportunity.
00:29:21 Kylie
For both of us.
00:29:22 Kylie
US and that I'm here to help identify you know what what's going really well and where your strengths are, and then perhaps what are some of the other areas that I can help fill some gaps in?
00:29:37 Kylie
Or you know, help answer any questions you might have around you know.
00:29:42 Kylie
The things that you're struggling with or you'd like to develop a stronger skill set in.
00:29:48 Kylie
It's the intention that you set up beforehand.
00:29:51 Kylie
Like what's the?
00:29:52 Kylie
What's the purpose of this?
00:29:54 Kylie
Activity that we're doing together.
00:29:57 Kylie
Uhm, because if I have a sense that you're in this with me and you're here to support my growth and development and help me.
00:30:08 Kylie
Uhm, deal with the discomfort of, you know, being the learner in this situation.
00:30:15 Kylie
Uhm, then I must.
00:30:16 Kylie
I'm much more likely to stay open to taking on feedback and growing rather than keeping the armor up and keeping defensive and shutting down opportunities to learn and grow.
00:30:28 Janine
That's OK, isn't it?
00:30:30 Janine
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:32 Janine
I'm just thinking it back on some of my experiences and some have been better than others.
00:30:36 Janine
You know at one school it was just a nightmare doing that observation.
00:30:39 Janine
It was like a tick box exercise.
00:30:40 Janine
It was full of anxiety.
00:30:42 Janine
And then another time it was really collaborative process.
00:30:45 Janine
It was enjoyable.
00:30:46 Janine
There was lots of planning involved.
00:30:47 Janine
There's lots of chit chat about.
00:30:49 Janine
Hey, I'm going to experiment with this thing.
00:30:50 Janine
Let's see how it goes and there was a little bit more risk taking and it was.
00:30:54 Janine
Yeah it.
00:30:54 Janine
Was about.
00:30:55 Janine
How it was set up by the leaders.
00:30:57 Kylie
Yeah, and So what you're talking about there.
00:30:59 Kylie
Is psychological safety.
00:31:01 Kylie
Umm, so and and psychological safety I've seen defined by Timothy Clarke is rewarded vulnerability.
00:31:11 Janine
Right?
00:31:13 Kylie
So you know how safe is it for me to be vulnerable here?
00:31:20 Kylie
Uhm, how safe of how safe is it for me to say I need help?
00:31:27 Kylie
I have a question.
00:31:29 Kylie
I don't know the answer.
00:31:30 Kylie
I made a mistake.
00:31:32 Kylie
Yeah, and the I don't know.
00:31:35 Kylie
Perhaps the kind of meta kind of view on this, or maybe the ironic part of it is as teachers.
00:31:40 Kylie
This is hopefully what you're hoping to do with your kids with children.
00:31:43 Kylie
Yeah, because kids can't learn unless.
00:31:47 Kylie
It's a psychologically safe environment.
00:31:51 Kylie
And often what I found in working across professions, not just with with teachers.
00:31:57 Kylie
Or educators, but.
00:31:59 Kylie
We we sometimes can get fixed in us in our professional roles as this is what we do with our clients or our customers or who we serve that we forget that some of those principles in fact, probably most of them also are relevant in how we show up as a leader or a colleague or a team member.
00:32:20 Kylie
Without the people as well.
00:32:23 Janine
Yeah gosh, I'm really taken by that idea of like what did you say encourage vulnerability or what was that?
00:32:25
I mean.
00:32:30 Kylie
And so Timothy Clark calls it rewarded.
00:32:33 Kylie
Vulnerability rewarded, yes?
00:32:35 Kylie
Yeah, so you know I actually get rewarded for asking questions.
00:32:40 Kylie
I get rewarded for contributing.
00:32:45 Kylie
I'm learning that, you know, I get rewarded for challenging ideas like they're not things that are pushed away or seen as.
00:32:55 Kylie
Negative or, you know, think something to get resentful about.
00:32:59 Kylie
It's actually great I'm.
00:33:01 Kylie
I'm so glad that you did that.
00:33:02 Kylie
It shows you're engaged. It shows that you care. It shows that you are thinking and curious, and that's that's that's what we want. And it goes back to Renee's definition of leadership.
00:33:15 Kylie
Which is about a leader.
00:33:18 Kylie
Is anyone who has the courage to develop the potential in people and processes.
00:33:29 Kylie
OK, so, uh leader.
00:33:31 Kylie
As anyone who has the courage to develop the potential in people and processes so a leader isn't somebody who just has the title of leader or the position or the power of leader.
00:33:43 Kylie
Or you know the you know the the formal given authority power of leader I've seen.
00:33:49 Kylie
I've seen you know, school in in air quotes, leadership teams.
00:33:58 Kylie
That I wouldn't necessarily call leadership teams, administration teams.
00:34:02 Kylie
Yes, management teams, yes leadership.
00:34:06 Kylie
Not so much.
00:34:08 Janine
Right?
00:34:10 Kylie
You know, and then you could probably walk around a school ground and you could see you know people who don't have.
00:34:16 Kylie
Formal leadership authority.
00:34:18 Speaker 1
Right?
00:34:19 Kylie
Absolutely leading in, you know, in their development of building other leaders.
00:34:25 Janine
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
00:34:27 Janine
Yeah, I'm just.
00:34:29 Janine
I'm like I, I'm going to go back to that psychological safety thing you discuss because that to me is a game changer.
00:34:35 Janine
What you said, 'cause I've thought about psychological safety in the classroom as you do because you want kids to feel.
00:34:41 Janine
Safe, but I've.
00:34:41 Janine
Never thought of it in that way.
00:34:43 Janine
Before so.
00:34:45 Janine
For me it's meant like you know, how do you stop kids from picking on each other?
00:34:49 Janine
Or how do you you know?
00:34:51 Janine
How do you create a safe space for discussion where people are going to?
00:34:54 Janine
Say nasty things or.
00:34:54 Janine
Rude jokes or whatever but.
00:34:57 Janine
But to think of it as this.
00:35:02 Janine
Rewarded vulnerability to be able to.
00:35:05 Janine
Fail and make mistakes, and to be a learner and to admit you don't know.
00:35:10 Janine
I mean, that's key, isn't it?
00:35:12 Kylie
How brave is?
00:35:13 Kylie
It, ah.
00:35:15 Janine
I'll never forget there's this story ahead with this young man who was.
00:35:21 Janine
A very talented musician I know he would have been in a choir outside of school.
00:35:25 Janine
And everything and he.
00:35:27 Janine
He came to my class and we were doing some recording on an iPad and he just would not engage and most of the kids were loving this.
00:35:33 Janine
They were like, yeah, I'm going to make my installing.
00:35:35 Janine
It's going to be super great and he's like not not having a.
00:35:37 Janine
Bar of it.
00:35:38 Janine
I'm like what's the deal man like why aren't you giving this a try?
00:35:42 Janine
He's like me, I had this idea of my.
00:35:44 Janine
Head of.
00:35:45 Janine
What I want it to look like and I'm not going to be able to do it.
00:35:48 Janine
It won't come out.
00:35:49 Janine
Perfect, so I'm not going to try.
00:35:52 Janine
And I've never forgotten that and I I wasn't able to get him over the line in that instance, but he wasn't willing to fail and it wasn't about what anyone else thought either.
00:36:03 Janine
It was about what he thought of his own work, and I don't think he's willing to.
00:36:06 Janine
Admit to himself.
00:36:07 Janine
That he has worked to grow, and I suppose I said to him, you know, I know without mate.
00:36:13 Janine
You have to do an outlook 100 times badly before you do something good you know and he took that on and I hope that that stays with him.
00:36:22 Janine
But it's yeah you have to be willing to.
00:36:25 Kylie
Fail, don't you?
00:36:27 Kylie
You have to be willing to fail and.
00:36:29 Kylie
You have to be.
00:36:30 Kylie
Ready to accept that?
00:36:33 Kylie
Perfectionism is a trap.
00:36:37 Kylie
Like perfectionism just works against everything that's good in our lives.
00:36:45 Janine
That just I just wonder if you have a piece of advice here because I've met so many teachers, especially graduate teachers, who will spend hours upon hours upon our planning, planning, planning, planning every lesson through the minute, right?
00:36:57 Janine
And I know that there's you know, we've got some political action happening at the moment with teachers who are overworked and we need to try and save them some time.
00:37:04 Janine
So what is your advice to those teachers who need to plan everything to?
00:37:09 Kylie
Yeah, there's a big difference between perfectionism, which is.
00:37:16 Kylie
Defined perfectionism is a function of shame.
00:37:20 Kylie
Affection ISM is a feeling of not enoughness.
00:37:25 Kylie
And what I'm trying to do is I'm I'm trying to put on so much armor.
00:37:30 Kylie
That I can minimize.
00:37:34 Kylie
Judgment shame and criticism.
00:37:38 Kylie
And that's and it's.
00:37:40 Kylie
It's all based about what will other people think?
00:37:44 Kylie
Healthy striving comes from a place of saying what do I wanna get out of this?
00:37:51 Kylie
What does success look like for me in this?
00:37:55 Kylie
What you know what's what's in this?
00:37:59 Kylie
That is the learning opportunity for me that I'll take on board.
00:38:05 Kylie
And so when we're when perfectionism is driving, we're really hustling very hard for our worth.
00:38:12 Janine
Right?
00:38:13 Kylie
And when we think about healthy striving, it's it's an acknowledgement to say.
00:38:21 Kylie
It's really the acknowledgement is that I can be a learner and I can keep growing.
00:38:26 Kylie
I can start here and I can give it my best shot where I'm at now and recognize that I might not have all of the answers.
00:38:34 Kylie
I might not have it all figured out, but I'm gonna get in the arena and give it a go.
00:38:38 Kylie
So and I'm gonna be compassionate towards myself as a learner in this space, the same way that I would be compassionate and cheer on.
00:38:49 Kylie
You know my best friend who might be going through the same situation, yeah?
00:38:53 Kylie
And and.
00:38:55 Kylie
Once I do this thing.
00:38:58 Kylie
I will have some learnings out of that and that's how I get better, Umm?
00:39:04 Kylie
So I couldn't possibly, especially as a.
00:39:06 Kylie
Graduate I can't.
00:39:07 Kylie
Possibly be expected to know everything you know to have this skill of what I hope to have as a, you know, as an educator 10 years down the road from now.
00:39:17 Kylie
So this is.
00:39:17 Kylie
Where I'm starting with what I know, yeah.
00:39:20 Kylie
So who can I lean in?
00:39:22 Kylie
To to have a discussion.
00:39:24 Speaker 1
Who can I?
00:39:25 Kylie
Ask some questions about.
00:39:27 Kylie
Uhm, what conversations might be helpful?
00:39:31 Kylie
What's my list of questions that I could tap into a mentor or somebody else about?
00:39:37 Kylie
Like very often we think we have to do this all on our own.
00:39:42 Kylie
And that's another myth of vulnerability that you know I, that I can go it alone.
00:39:47 Kylie
You know that somehow I don't need other people.
00:39:51 Kylie
And and that just pushes up against our biology of how we're actually hardwired.
00:39:57 Kylie
We are actually hardwired to being in connection with other people.
00:40:01 Kylie
We are a social species.
00:40:02 Kylie
We've only ever survived by being in connection with other people.
00:40:06 Kylie
Umm, and so sometimes, particularly when we're you know when we're trying to prove and perform and perfect.
00:40:14 Kylie
We can take a.
00:40:15 Kylie
Lot of that on ourselves rather than saying.
00:40:19 Kylie
This is what I'm sort of feeling like a it.
00:40:21 Kylie
This is where I'm.
00:40:22 Kylie
Struggling with who can I reach out to you to have this conversation?
00:40:25 Kylie
Is it a?
00:40:26 Kylie
Talk with is it a phone conversation with?
00:40:29 Kylie
You know one of the other graduates and just asking have they got any insight?
00:40:32 Kylie
Is it with a coordinator or a mentor?
00:40:35 Kylie
That ever been been assigned in the school and being OK?
00:40:39 Kylie
With feeling.
00:40:40 Kylie
With feeling emotionally exposed in that.
00:40:45 Kylie
Yeah, and we're not normally practiced, right?
00:40:48 Kylie
That's why that's why.
00:40:49 Kylie
It's that's why it's brave.
00:40:50 Speaker 1
Oh yeah.
00:40:50 Kylie
That's why it's brave to do that is to admit I don't feel I've got a handle on this.
00:40:55 Kylie
Can I look this through with you and and just get some feedback?
00:41:01 Janine
Yeah, no good at 5.
00:41:04 Janine
I wish I had done that more in my first year and I would definitely second what you just.
00:41:08 Janine
Said yeah, I think.
00:41:09 Kylie
A lot of burnout in that perspective can come.
00:41:13 Kylie
It's the psychological burnout of feeling like I.
00:41:16 Kylie
I should have this all together, yeah.
00:41:21 Kylie
Do you think do you think that?
00:41:23 Kylie
That happens when I'm thinking.
00:41:23 Janine
Yeah it does.
00:41:25 Janine
It absolutely does, and I've I've seen it in my friends as well and just seeing them run themselves ragged.
00:41:31 Janine
And I wasn't one of those guys, but I didn't reach out for help either.
00:41:35 Janine
I just.
00:41:36 Janine
Have drowned in my.
00:41:37 Janine
First couple years.
00:41:38 Kylie
You know, yeah, and you know what was really surprising.
00:41:42 Kylie
Renee talks about in the research.
00:41:44 Kylie
So when when we look at the curriculum, rumbling with vulnerability is a big piece of the work.
00:41:50 Kylie
The other skills that there's four skill sets of daring leadership rumbling with vulnerability living into values, so getting clarity of values.
00:41:57 Kylie
Braving trust so really understanding what trust looks like and then learning to rise.
00:42:02 Kylie
Which is how you get back up after a failure or disappointment or.
00:42:04 Kylie
A set back.
00:42:05 Kylie
But in the trust piece when she was looking at trust.
00:42:09 Kylie
And and the research into that what the one of the most surprising things was one a really big trust earning behavior.
00:42:18 Kylie
That she discovered was asking for help.
00:42:22 Kylie
Which seems really kind of intuitive.
00:42:25 Kylie
Yeah, but leaders will say when somebody asks for help.
00:42:31 Kylie
I find that I trust them more.
00:42:33 Kylie
Because I know that they're engaged and they're thinking about what's going on and they're willing to ask a question to make sure that they have got it right.
00:42:46 Kylie
Rather than kind of winging it or covering it up.
00:42:49 Janine
Right, yeah?
00:42:51 Speaker 1
That's it's.
00:42:52 Kylie
Kind of, you know, it's kind of counter intuitive when you think.
00:42:54 Kylie
About it, but.
00:42:56 Kylie
Asking for help is actually a big trust building behavior.
00:43:00
You think about.
00:43:00 Kylie
That's right.
00:43:01 Kylie
Think about it with kids in the classroom.
00:43:05 Janine
It's a permission slip, isn't it?
00:43:06 Janine
Than to just go.
00:43:08 Janine
It's OK to limit, you don't know.
00:43:09 Janine
It's good to ask for help.
00:43:10 Janine
You'll actually be smiled upon for doing it, but I think that helps be a little bit more brave, doesn't it?
00:43:17 Kylie
Yeah, I mean I could sit here for like what you were saying.
00:43:17 Janine
Knowing that?
00:43:20 Kylie
You know I could sit here all with my Saturday trying to figure out this Lesson plan or trying to plan it.
00:43:26 Kylie
You know to the NTH degree.
00:43:28 Kylie
Or maybe I could sit down, you know, for half an hour with a friend and talk it through.
00:43:35 Kylie
And get some feedback and kind of get some assurance, but this is OK.
00:43:40 Kylie
Or, Umm, you know.
00:43:42 Kylie
Like so often we think we have to work it all out on our own, and I think that's that's where you can also see the silos happening in schools or on teams or.
00:43:53 Kylie
You know, in cultures where we're also armored up thinking that we have to be all be there, no and all have to be right rather than as a collective.
00:44:01 Kylie
That's our responsibility to work together.
00:44:04 Kylie
To constantly be learning and checking in with each other and getting it right together.
00:44:09 Janine
Yeah, and I feel like I've seen I've worked in primary and secondary and I feel like I see that collaborative behavior happen much more often in primary schools and.
00:44:16 Janine
It's it's gold.
00:44:17 Janine
What happens isn't it?
00:44:19 Janine
Yeah yeah, now I wanna.
00:44:21 Janine
I wanna dig a bit deeper with you Kaylee.
00:44:24 Janine
I have a question here that.
00:44:28 Janine
I guess what I want to know is you know what's your biggest lesson that you've brought out of?
00:44:32 Janine
Doing this work.
00:44:36 Kylie
From having worked now with.
00:44:41 Kylie
Probably a few 1000 people doing this curriculum I and and how you know and?
00:44:49 Kylie
You teach what you.
00:44:50 Kylie
Need to learn right?
00:44:50 Kylie
That's what is.
00:44:51 Kylie
Often fed and you know about educators, yeah.
00:44:53 Speaker 1
Right?
00:44:57 Kylie
I, I think the two big pieces from this work that I've realized by getting this work in my own bones so I can show up with other people and and talk about it.
00:45:07 Kylie
Is the self compassion peace absolutely 100% game changing revolutionizes how you show up in the world and your capacity.
00:45:16 Kylie
To keep showing up over time, you know this sustainability.
00:45:19 Kylie
Of your leadership.
00:45:21 Kylie
But the other big piece is boundary.
00:45:24 Kylie
Umm and really being able to get clear about boundaries of what's OK and what's not.
00:45:30 Kylie
OK, yeah.
00:45:32 Kylie
And and being able to rumble with the discomfort of setting boundaries that might.
00:45:41 Kylie
Ruffle feathers with other people that people might get annoyed about or push back on.
00:45:50 Kylie
But in the absence of setting your own boundaries, other people just will fill up your cup, your priorities, your space, your commitments.
00:46:02 Kylie
Unless you are clear about your boundaries about what's OK and what's not OK and what you are prepared to do and what you're not prepared to do and what's driving those.
00:46:11 Kylie
I think we can find ourselves in a place of.
00:46:16 Kylie
Of burnout, you know, and, uh, big kind.
00:46:19 Kylie
Of a big.
00:46:20 Kylie
Uhm, way to look at at.
00:46:23 Kylie
Boundaries and understand what boundaries are.
00:46:28 Kylie
Anywhere in your life where you experience resentment, right?
00:46:34 Kylie
So resentment is a really good indicator that there's a boundary issue that needs to be addressed, yeah?
00:46:43 Kylie
So if I'm feeling resentful because I've been.
00:46:48 Kylie
Asked to do this thing.
00:46:51 Kylie
I need to investigate what's that bumping up against.
00:46:56 Kylie
You know, is it that?
00:46:59 Kylie
It's just been expected of me without anyone checking with.
00:47:02 Kylie
Me if if I have capacity to do this.
00:47:05 Kylie
Umm, uh.
00:47:07 Kylie
You know, have I said yes to doing this when actually I really wanted to say no?
00:47:17 Kylie
Uhm, you know, is there an injustice or inequity here that actually needs to be addressed that needs to?
00:47:24 Kylie
Be talked about.
00:47:27 Kylie
Rather than, you know, potentially just me sucking.
00:47:29 Kylie
It up or.
00:47:30 Kylie
Just, you know, looking the other way.
00:47:33 Kylie
Wherever there is resentment, there's normally a boundary issue that needs.
00:47:37 Kylie
To be discussed, explored observed.
00:47:41 Kylie
And and a boundary set and held.
00:47:46 Kylie
And when the context changes, boundaries change.
00:47:50 Kylie
And so I saw, you know, with the arrival of COVID and just the complete turning inside out of everything.
00:48:00 Kylie
Yeah, for a sustained period of time.
00:48:03 Kylie
Yeah, like the mess like the.
00:48:05 Kylie
Most hail with that you.
00:48:09 Kylie
You know it was, uh, recontracting of boundaries.
00:48:12 Kylie
Umm, so in this situation, what's OK and what's not OK, and it's really hard when there's so much of so much of what might be happening is out of our control.
00:48:25 Kylie
And and so we really need to focus what's what is in my control.
00:48:31 Kylie
What what can I control in this situation?
00:48:34 Kylie
And what and?
00:48:35 Kylie
What do I need to put push back on them?
00:48:38 Kylie
Uhm what?
00:48:40 Kylie
How do we renegotiate these boundaries together given the context of what's happening both in my personal life?
00:48:47 Kylie
You know of what's happening with me and in in in the professional context.
00:48:55 Kylie
And that's not easy work I think.
00:48:58 Kylie
Yeah, when I talk when I talk with leaders and when they asked me, you know what they?
00:49:03 Kylie
You know, some of the biggest things that they get out of this work is.
00:49:08 Kylie
Is self compassion and boundaries and and being able to rumble with the discomfort of boundaries and because often in those boundaries conversations are hard feedback conversations.
00:49:25 Kylie
And that's the that's the kind of other area like I was working with a bunch of.
00:49:31 Kylie
Primary school.
00:49:33 Kylie
Principles from New South Wales earlier this week.
00:49:37 Kylie
You know, and some of their calls to courage were things like these are principles saying I wanna be braver to have more difficult conversations.
00:49:48 Kylie
I want to be braver, implementing change, especially when I meet resistance in staff.
00:49:52 Kylie
I'm letting go of the things I've implemented.
00:49:56 Kylie
You know?
00:49:56 Kylie
Letting go of perfectionism.
00:49:58 Kylie
I I wanna be braver it sticking to my point when it's not a popular one.
00:50:03 Janine
Oh tough one yeah.
00:50:05 Kylie
I'd like to.
00:50:06 Kylie
Develop more skills and giving constructive feedback so.
00:50:11 Kylie
You know, so some of those.
00:50:13 Kylie
Some of those skills.
00:50:16 Kylie
Come because having those conversations work Ryerson boundaries to be.
00:50:22 Kylie
Upheld Morehead.
00:50:26 Janine
Yeah so.
00:50:29 Janine
What is?
00:50:32 Janine
You know we're talking about education and talked a lot about.
00:50:34 Janine
Grenades work, but.
00:50:35 Janine
What is fit for you personally?
00:50:38 Janine
What is your wish for education?
00:50:42 Kylie
Gosh, that's such a big question.
00:50:46 Kylie
I think I think.
00:50:47 Kylie
My biggest wish.
00:50:49 Kylie
For education as a whole.
00:50:52 Kylie
Is actually honoring what it is to be a human being.
00:50:56 Kylie
In the world.
00:51:01 Kylie
To really honor.
00:51:04 Kylie
The role of vulnerability for us as learners and our capacity to learn our capacity to show up and engage with each other and work together collaboratively collaboratively to solve.
00:51:22 Kylie
And address some of the biggest issues that we've ever had to face as as a as a species.
00:51:31 Kylie
So one of the things I'm just a short story to maybe finish up on, but.
00:51:37 Kylie
In 2019 I was part of a program called Homeward Bound, which is a global leadership program.
00:51:43 Janine
You are not brilliant.
00:51:45 Speaker 1
A lot, yeah.
00:51:46 Janine
I I know of this program yeah.
00:51:49 Kylie
So I was invited to.
00:51:50 Kylie
Join the visibility stream faculty and visibility is all about.
00:51:57 Kylie
Empowering well in the homeward bound context, empowering women in stem from women from leaders in women in stem backgrounds from around the world to have the will and the skill to bring the to to, you know, increase the impact of their work on the world and to raise their leadership capacity.
00:52:19 Kylie
And in that experience.
00:52:23 Kylie
It's a 12 month online program that culminates in a three week voyage around Antarctica readings. Yeah, 8080 women in stem from 26 different countries around the world, all on this one ship floating around, you know?
00:52:38 Speaker 1
It's not like.
00:52:38 Janine
The regular recipe for a tea party.
00:52:43 Kylie
Yeah, let's look at this.
00:52:44 Kylie
Look at things that come to mind when you know and.
00:52:46 Kylie
It's like that.
00:52:46 Kylie
Type of people and we spent a lot of time doing a lot of container building to build psychological safety before we went on the ship.
00:52:54 Janine
Yeah, so we.
00:52:55 Kylie
Actually did quite a bit of digging into some of the work that we do with.
00:52:59 Kylie
Right?
00:53:00 Kylie
But but one of the women on the ship, who is part of the faculty as part of, I guess there Elder program.
00:53:06 Kylie
They called it.
00:53:07 Kylie
At the time, kind of, you know.
00:53:09 Kylie
The the the.
00:53:10 Kylie
Older, wiser, more senior experienced kind of women wears Christiana Figueres.
00:53:17 Kylie
And she was the UN executive secretary.
00:53:21 Kylie
Who led the negotiation of the Paris climate agreement?
00:53:27 Kylie
Like I still pinch myself too, but I I'm.
00:53:31 Kylie
This incredible woman from from South America who wound up leading perhaps the most important negotiation.
00:53:42 Kylie
Of our times yeah yeah it you know and it involved 195 nation state.
00:53:50 Kylie
Having to unanimously agree on these climate targets and pathway forwards, and I didn't realize.
00:53:58 Kylie
But when you go to you know anything that's kind of done in the UN.
00:54:02 Kylie
You have to get unanimous agreement for it to be enshrined, we.
00:54:06 Kylie
And and what was so interesting to me is learning about.
00:54:09 Kylie
Christiana was that she wasn't a politician.
00:54:13 Kylie
She wasn't an economist.
00:54:15 Kylie
She wasn't.
00:54:16 Kylie
She wasn't a scientist.
00:54:19 Kylie
She was actually a trained anthropologist, OK?
00:54:24 Kylie
And what that meant was what that meant was that she understood culture.
00:54:24 Janine
How I should say?
00:54:32 Kylie
She understood that to make change we need to meet people where they're at and seek to understand their stories and what's going on for them.
00:54:44 Janine
Brilliant yeah.
00:54:46 Kylie
And so during her tenure in that role.
00:54:51 Kylie
And I don't know if many.
00:54:52 Kylie
People realize this, but Paris?
00:54:54 Kylie
Climate agreement climate agreement which?
00:54:57 Kylie
You know which which happened in 2015? Two 1016.
00:55:02 Kylie
They had tried to.
00:55:02 Kylie
Do it at Copenhagen in 2009 and failed.
00:55:06 Kylie
Yeah, and so Cristiana came in.
00:55:08 Kylie
Kind of after that, and one of the things I realized was her being an anthropologist meant that instead of kind of sitting in, you know UN headquarters and trying to negotiate everything from from there.
00:55:22 Kylie
Is that she went and visited every single one.
00:55:24 Kylie
Of those countries.
00:55:26 Kylie
She went to seek to understand.
00:55:30 Kylie
195 countries, yeah, and to seek to understand what's going on for.
00:55:35 Janine
Them gosh.
00:55:36 Kylie
And to show up.
00:55:39 Kylie
And to show interest and to be curious and to honor the reality of what was going on for those people and to listen genuinely with curiosity about their concerns and their limitations.
00:55:51 Kylie
And what would need to happen in order for this agreement to take place?
00:55:54 Janine
Right, that takes that.
00:55:58 Kylie
Takes an extraordinary amount of self awareness.
00:56:03 Kylie
To be able to go to a country, say for example like Saudi Arabia, where as a female negotiator.
00:56:12 Kylie
She had to potentially put aside.
00:56:16 Kylie
Perhaps some of her own kind of you know, beliefs about you know the role of women in.
00:56:24 Kylie
To meet these people where they're at for this higher purpose of.
00:56:28 Kylie
You know this.
00:56:29 Kylie
Needing to come to an agreement about how we're going to go forward and solve this massive problem, which affects all of us.
00:56:36 Kylie
You need to have a pretty good sense of self.
00:56:39 Kylie
You need to have a pretty good sense of your own emotional reactivity and develop some skills in navigating your own emotional landscape in order to be able to kind of create the collaborations that.
00:56:54 Kylie
We so desperately need going forward.
00:56:56 Kylie
We need to be able to drop our own egos and show up in service of the work in each other.
00:57:03 Kylie
With the clarity of our own values, you know.
00:57:07 Kylie
With a with.
00:57:07 Kylie
A with a sense of purpose and impact and and and you know.
00:57:13 Kylie
And one of the other things was I learned from her boundaries.
00:57:15 Kylie
So even.
00:57:16 Kylie
In her role.
00:57:17 Kylie
She she never took meetings after 7:00 o'clock.
00:57:23 Kylie
Tonight, you know shared this massive, huge global role, but she was like, no, I don't do.
00:57:28 Kylie
I don't do evening meetings.
00:57:29 Kylie
I don't do dinner meetings, you know, I I finish my day at this time and that enables me the space and the UM, resetting and.
00:57:38 Kylie
The you know.
00:57:40 Kylie
Rejuvenation that I need to be able to come back to.
00:57:42 Kylie
Work tomorrow and go again.
00:57:45 Kylie
So she held space and she modeled that for the team that she worked with as well.
00:57:50 Kylie
So it became expected that this is when Christina is available.
00:57:54 Kylie
This is not when she's available.
00:57:56 Kylie
This is what she can do.
00:57:57 Kylie
This is what she can't do.
00:57:58 Kylie
And so I guess on my wish for education is too.
00:58:04 Kylie
Is to really have a greater appreciation for what it is to be a human?
00:58:08 Kylie
Come to recognize the diversity.
00:58:11 Kylie
Uhm, that exist within us, and to find a pathway to each other rather than seeing it as division.
00:58:21 Kylie
And I think for I think a lot of that does come from our own self awareness of what it is to be human today, the the compassion that we can.
00:58:31 Kylie
Offer ourselves, I think when we show up to ourselves with more compassion where.
00:58:37 Kylie
We're more able to do that for others as well.
00:58:40 Kylie
Yeah, and that when we practice setting boundaries for ourselves, we can role model what that looks like for other people as well.
00:58:53 Janine
I'm I'm getting the sense that this is going to be one of those episodes that our teachers listen to over and over and over again.
00:59:00 Janine
I can't even draw the threads together for that because there were so many learnings and ideas that are applicable to our own lives.
00:59:08 Janine
So yeah.
00:59:11 Janine
Thank you.
00:59:12 Janine
I feel very inspired.
00:59:15 Kylie
That's my pleasure.
00:59:16 Kylie
Thank you for the opportunity to do that, and I I love working with educators because I know that not only is there the opportunity to help.
00:59:29 Kylie
In the sustainability of their own practice of being educators, but educators influence generations.
00:59:38 Kylie
And it can just take one educator.
00:59:41 Kylie
In your life.
00:59:43 Kylie
To change the trajectory.
00:59:46 Kylie
Of someone's life, hopefully for good.
00:59:49 Kylie
Uhm, and you know when I think about.
00:59:54 Kylie
What has led me to doing the work that I do today and where some of my strengths come from and the things that I get most joy out of I.
01:00:01 Kylie
Can track it back to some really.
01:00:03 Kylie
Wonderful educators that I've had in my life and and in fact in fact one thing that's really interesting.
01:00:10 Kylie
The best leader I've ever had in the corporate world was a primary school teacher who then went out into business.
01:00:17 Kylie
Oh yeah, skills as you probably don't want to say this, but skills are very transferable.
01:00:22 Kylie
Great teachers have very transferable skills across a broad range of industry.
01:00:27 Kylie
Please come so when I think about when I think about the role of education and educators doing some of the most important work there is to be done in the world and and doing it in a way that really honors the whole humanity of a student and the whole humanity of a teacher.
01:00:47 Kylie
That's where I think.
01:00:47 Kylie
That there's.
01:00:49 Kylie
That's what gets me excited about working with teachers.
01:00:54 Janine
Brilliant, I'm excited to thank you so much.
01:01:00 Kylie
It's absolutely my pleasure.
01:01:01 Kylie
Thanks for the opportunity.